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Vinyl is not as bad as I expected.

MakeMineVinyl

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I'm gonna guess that you have never have played LPs on substandard equipment. I went through something like 10 copies of Stokowski's Phase 4 recording of Beethoven's 9th with the LSO. Wore them out, they became unplayable. You'll find tons of discs like that, just plain worn out, in the $1 bins of thrift stores. Record wear is a thing. Lots of defenders of the LP format claim they don't experience record wear, I'm sure there are some people that know how to handle LPs to prevent wear. But that's not most people. Record wear was [and for some people still is] a real issue. It's real hard to damage a CD like that. I've had many more LPs arrive damaged or develop damage than CDs. I've encountered very few CDs suffering from disc rot. I've encountered many LPs that came out of the wrapper warped or off-center. Have yet to encounter any off-center or warped CDs.
I have used either AR turntables with Shure V15 cartridge in the earliest days (with a Rabco arm thrown in there for awhile) or a Thorens TD-125 MKII with SME 3009 arm and V15 or other similar cartridges from the early 70s onward to the present day, and I've always treated my records extremely well. Things I own generally last forever because I take good care of them and they still work as-new.

Except for some CDs which fail due to rot no matter how well they are taken car of..... The same can be said of more than a couple CD players whose lasers have worn out, and due to parts unobtanium issues are a lost cause. On the other hand, I can easily today buy a new turntable, arm and cartridge - or vacuum tubes for that matter. ;)
 

Robin L

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I have used either AR turntables with Shure V15 cartridge in the earliest days (with a Rabco arm thrown in there for awhile) or a Thorens TD-125 MKII with SME 3009 arm and V15 or other similar cartridges from the early 70s onward to the present day, and I've always treated my records extremely well. Things I own generally last forever because I take good care of them and they still work as-new.

Except for some CDs which fail due to rot no matter how well they are taken car of..... The same can be said of more than a couple CD players whose lasers have worn out, and due to parts unobtanium issues are a lost cause. On the other hand, I can easily today buy a new turntable, arm and cartridge - or vacuum tubes for that matter. ;)
I've used many different turntables as I drifted from one record store job to another. My very first LP---the "White Album"---was played on an all-in one "stereo" record player, featuring a flip down turntable with a flip-over stylus [there was the option of playing 78s back then] topped off by a nickle taped to the tonearm. My father had LP playing devices that were acoustic, used steel needles to play his Nat King Cole and Jackie Gleason LPs. My first [children's] record player was acoustic, played at 45 and 78 rpm, used steel needles. I've used many different cartridges, tracking with a fairly wide range of downward forces. I've had good turntables and bad. This was a fairly common situation for me during "Peak Vinyl", when it took no effort to get a job at a record store, particularly if you could reel off the names of a couple-dozen classical works without blinking. Lots of friends/acquaintances/co-workers had all sorts of different turntables with all sorts of different cartridges. Some were good, most were bad. A lot of my turntables turned out to be AR XAs but I never got a V-15, and that puzzles me to this day.

I suspect that you are a rather pure example of an audiophile. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I am essentially heretical. I tried out any number of "audiophile" experiments before coming to where I am now, where I no longer seek The Absolute Sound, am happy with a convincing microphone feed, which might be a more "accurate" representation of the source recording anyway. I'm less concerned with the sound than the tunes. The point always has been the pursuit of tunes. There were times when I had a boombox, sold off all my LPs and lived off of that for awhile, listening to needledrops of my LPs, some cheap commercial issues or mixtapes, some airchecks. But once I got the next record store job, the cycle would start all over. Now, listening to files ripped from CDs, am hearing things [musical things, like counter-melodies] I didn't hear before.

So, my experience is obviously very different from yours.
 

levimax

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The one thing I don't understand is why anyone feels they need to "chose" between LP's and digital and then after they make their "decision" try to convince everyone else they should do the same. Being able to play both is the best choice for me and I have a lot of music on both formats and enjoy both formats as well as streaming. For other people it will be different which is cool.
 

mhardy6647

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I've had many more CDs become unplayable due to rot or any number of other causes, but I've NEVER had an LP just 'fail' and become unplayable. ;)
As long as attic storage, e.g., wasn't involved ;)

This one wouldn't play too well -- but it's a WHAM! album, so it's probably for the best. :cool:

DSCN5509.jpg

DSCN5510.jpg
 

MakeMineVinyl

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So, my experience is obviously very different from yours.
A lot of my career has been (and still is) working for audio equipment manufacturers, so naturally I've been more equipment based than usual.
 

Mart68

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I have used either AR turntables with Shure V15 cartridge in the earliest days (with a Rabco arm thrown in there for awhile) or a Thorens TD-125 MKII with SME 3009 arm and V15 or other similar cartridges from the early 70s onward to the present day, and I've always treated my records extremely well. Things I own generally last forever because I take good care of them and they still work as-new.

Except for some CDs which fail due to rot no matter how well they are taken car of..... The same can be said of more than a couple CD players whose lasers have worn out, and due to parts unobtanium issues are a lost cause. On the other hand, I can easily today buy a new turntable, arm and cartridge - or vacuum tubes for that matter. ;)
But in fairness you can also buy another cd player. Even if they stopped production tomorrow there are enough out there that they will still be available 100 years from now.

Same for any format. If I want a reel to reel, an Elcaset machine, a DCC player, minidisc player, a cassette player, a laserdisc machine, an 8 track or a wind-up gramophone they are all still available to buy.

All formats long since discontinued.

I mean you can still get a Betamax VCR if you want one. 'You can still buy turntables' isn't really an advantage of vinyl.

And you could buy several replacement CD players for the price of one stylus replacement,
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I mean you can still get a Betamax VCR if you want one. 'You can still buy turntables' isn't really an advantage of vinyl.

If turntables aren't for you, simply don't buy one and invest elsewhere. ;)
 

mhardy6647

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But in fairness you can also buy another cd player. Even if they stopped production tomorrow there are enough out there that they will still be available 100 years from now.
Heck, I've probably got a 100-year supply in the basement (if one counts DVD players).
:facepalm:
 

Sal1950

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I have used either AR turntables with Shure V15 cartridge in the earliest days (with a Rabco arm thrown in there for awhile)
I'd love to see a picture of that mod'd AR if you have one.
The one thing I don't understand is why anyone feels they need to "chose" between LP's and digital and then after they make their "decision" try to convince everyone else they should do the same. Being able to play both is the best choice for me and I have a lot of music on both formats and enjoy both formats as well as streaming. For other people it will be different which is cool.
I fully understand why people enjoy vinyl, there's a world of justified reasons and that's entirely their choice.
The thing I've yet to understand is why folks come to ASR, a website based on SOTA HiFi gear, to talk about their vinyl. Vinyl hasn't been relevant in SOTA audio 50 years?
Would you go to a website dedicated to modern high performance racing autos to talk and brag on the performance your 1932 Ford Coupe?
I just don't get it.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I'd love to see a picture of that mod'd AR if you have one.
This is the only picture of the AR/Rabco/V-15 I have. It was taken with an early Polaroid camera:

AR - Rabco.jpg


And here's a general view of my system circa 1969. The AR turntable had its original arm at this point. The amplifier is the AR amplifier, the upright reel to reel is a Sony 660, and the horizontal reel to reel is a professional Tapesonic 70-TRSH 2 track 15 ips. The Altec Voice of the Theater speaker is the same one I still use as my main speakers. The AR amplifier I still use in my electronics shop. The Sony and Tapesonic still look new and works great. The AR turntable is long gone.

Orig AR.jpg
 
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Sal1950

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This is the only picture of the AR/Rabco/V-15 I have. It was taken with an early Polaroid camera:
Thanks!! That's some awesome pictures.
I had that exact same dust buster thing on my AR-XB back in the day. LOL
I kept looking into putting a SLT arm on my AR but never made it happen.
Even after mod'ing my AR with some regular hot arm of the day I still wanted a SLT
Ended up selling the AR and buying the H-K ST8 with the Rabco design arm, great TT.
Below photo from my ebay sale pic in 2008
IMG_0999.jpg
 

JP

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The thing I've yet to understand is why folks come to ASR, a website based on SOTA HiFi gear, to talk about their vinyl. Vinyl hasn't been relevant in SOTA audio 50 years?
Would you go to a website dedicated to modern high performance racing autos to talk and brag on the performance your 1932 Ford Coupe?
I just don't get it.

I'd imagine if it were off-brand to talk about vinyl here, there wouldn't be a forum named "Amplifiers, Phono preamp, and Analog Audio Review".
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Thanks!! That's some awesome pictures.
I had that exact same dust buster thing on my AR-XB back in the day. LOL
I kept looking into putting a SLT arm on my AR but never made it happen.
Even after mod'ing my AR with some regular hot arm of the day I still wanted a SLT
Ended up selling the AR and buying the H-K ST8 with the Rabco design arm, great TT.
Below photo from my ebay sale pic in 2008
View attachment 164216
Looks like the SLT technology advanced from when I had the initial Rabco. The main problem I had with the Rabco was that whenever the motor energized to move the arm, the motor whirr was transmitted through the mechanism up through the record to the cartridge and you could hear it faintly through the speakers. It wasn't a huge deal killer, but it was absolutely first-gen technology. :(
 

Sal1950

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I'd imagine if it were off-brand to talk about vinyl here, there wouldn't be a forum named "Amplifiers, Phono preamp, and Analog Audio Review".
Like I said "I" just don't get it. But that's just me.
As they say, the Money Talks, and the BS Walks
Or as Steven Wilson says,
StevenWilson2021.jpg
 

Robin L

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Sal1950

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Okay, I had to look that up
Ah don't worry Rick, I got informed its one of those silly modern PC ideals bit. :(
I still have no idea WTF he's talking bout. :confused:
 

Robin L

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Okay, I had to look that up. But I’m not catching the relationship to Polulle Oman Mentorin Ohjauksessa, the Finnish prison system.

Rick “clueless as usual” Denney
Nope.

"Postmodernism is generally defined by an attitude of skepticism, irony, or rejection toward what it describes as the grand narratives and ideologies associated with modernism, often criticizing Enlightenment rationality and focusing on the role of ideology in maintaining political or economic power. Common targets of postmodern criticism include universalist ideas of objective reality, morality, truth, human nature, reason, science, language, and social progress. Accordingly, postmodern thought is broadly characterized by tendencies to self-consciousness, self-referentiality, epistemological and moral relativism, pluralism, and irreverence."

 

Sal1950

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"Postmodernism is generally defined by an attitude of skepticism, irony, or rejection toward what it describes as the grand narratives and ideologies associated with modernism, often criticizing Enlightenment rationality and focusing on the role of ideology in maintaining political or economic power. Common targets of postmodern criticism include universalist ideas of objective reality, morality, truth, human nature, reason, science, language, and social progress. Accordingly, postmodern thought is broadly characterized by tendencies to self-consciousness, self-referentiality, epistemological and moral relativism, pluralism, and irreverence."
WTF are you talking about Robin?
I think your making this schitt up as you go along.
Sounds more like some conversation I heard on a acid trip. :p
 

Robin L

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WTF are you talking about Robin?
I think your making this schitt up as you go along.
Sounds more like some conversation I heard on a acid trip. :p
Yeah, well, this is what is generally taught as a subset of 20th century philosophy. One way of looking at "Postmodernism" points to the time after the "Modern" era, roughly from the beginning of the 20th century to the end of WWII. What with the dropping of "The Bomb" and the realization that technological advances in warfare made it possible to destroy the planet in a flash, philosophical writing and other cultural artifacts became increasingly satirical and distrustful of the value of "technological progress" and increasingly paranoid regarding systems of societal control and value systems within these social constructs. It might have been part of a conversation you heard on an acid trip. However, that doesn't change the fact that is a very real thing. And trust me, if you were to read some of the more famous examples of this philosophy [Michel Foucalt, Gilles Deleuze and Félix Guattari, among others] you would probably find it all much crazier than it already sounds.
 
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