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THD has a much bigger effect on sound than you think

Pdxwayne

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I think you may need a little tutorial to understand distortion better, what causes it and how it manifests itself. Yes, DISTORT will produce different levels of distortions at different sound levels. This is how distortion works. DISTORT works by computing and simulating the non-linear behavior of the device with respect to all possible volume levels. It is this non-linearity that causes harmonics at varying levels, just like it does in real devices, from DACs to amps.
I think you still not getting my point.

Lets say a song has a -15 dB 200hz tone. You app can handle the calculation of distortions for that song just fine based on the distortion dB number being inputed. Lets say you input -80db for 2nd harmonic. But that is fixed distortions. Your app is assuming that -80db distortion never change for that -15db 200 hz tone in the file.

But, if the same song is played at 1 watt vs 5 watts in real amp, that -15db 200hz tone may not have just that fixed -80db second harmonics distortion. At 1 watt, 2nd harmonics could be -90db. At 5 watts, 2nd harmonics may be at -70db. Your app can't account for that.
 
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pkane

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I think you still not getting my point.

Lets say a song have -15 dB in 200hz. You app can handle the calculation of distorttions for that song just fine based on the distortion dB number being inputed. Lets say you input -80db for 2nd harmonic. But that is fixed distortions. Your app is assuming that -80db distortion never change for that -15db 200 hz.

But, if the same song is played at 1 watt vs 5 watts in real amp, that -15db bass may not have just that fixed -80db second harmonics distortion. At 1 watt, 2nd harmonics could be -90db. At 5 watts, 2nd harmonics may be at -70db. Your app can't account for that.

Sorry, but this is just nonsense. There is no fixed harmonic distortion that's applied at -80dB or at any other level. In fact, the app doesn't compute harmonics or IMD at all when it adds distortion. Just like there's no magic component in the amp that knows how to insert different harmonic frequencies at different levels depending on the amp "wattage". I suggest you read on the topic of distortions. Start with the non-linear transfer function.
 

Pdxwayne

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Sorry, but this is just nonsense. There is no fixed harmonic distortion that's applied at -80dB or at any other level. In fact, the app doesn't compute harmonics or IMD at all when it adds distortion. Just like there's no magic component in the amp that knows how to insert different harmonic frequencies at different levels depending on the amp "wattage". I suggest you read on the topic of distortions. Start with the non-linear transfer function.
Please tell me how you app would simulate this amp? For example, look at 5th harmonic?

From Amir:
1 watt
Pass ACA Class A Amplifier 1 watt Harmonic Distortion Audio Measurements.png


5 watts
Pass ACA Class A Amplifier 2 watt Harmonic Distortion Audio Measurements.png
 

Pdxwayne

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Suggest you read up on it. I'm out.
Sorry, but as I said, using your app to save files after adding distortions, the saved files all got lower volume than original by several dB. I would say from that issue alone, your app is not suitable to simulate real amp.
 

pkane

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Sorry, but as I said, using your app to save files after adding distortions, the saved files all got lower volume than original by several dB. I would say from that issue alone, your app is not suitable to simulate real amp.
You mean real amp that produces 29dB of gain? Just adjust the volume level up before saving or when playing to simulate any gain you want.
 

Pdxwayne

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You mean real amp that produces 29dB of gain? Just adjust the volume level up before saving or when playing to simulate any gain you want.
I did try to get volume up when playing back the saved files. Sounded bad even played much louder. Should not be that bad. But I never did listen to amp with -80db 5th harmonics.... ; )
 
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Pdxwayne

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You can get a full refund of your purchase price, if you're not satisfied.
Haha. As I edited, I don't think I ever have an amp with -80db 5th harminics.....So maybe indeed it should sound that bad.
; )
 

Pdxwayne

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You can get a full refund of your purchase price, if you're not satisfied.
Well, I simply saved my test file with default -300db value for all harmonics. Same sound quality issue. Lower volume and lack details......
 

preload

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So in what equipment/conditions are we suggesting that low levels of 3rd/4th/5th harmonic distortion thought to be inaudible are actually audible? Speakers? Certainly not modern power amps or dacs, which have been demonstrated to be generally indistinguishable in blind listening tests, right? That’s your gold standard evidence right there, debate over.
 
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pma

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Effectively with loudness contours 60db down from the peak? I am going to go with totally masked.

It is a speaker, and I think you know that its distortion linearly rises with level. I almost always give rather hints than pedantic analysis.
 

pma

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Just curious, is there anyone who could not hear the difference on this 400+500Hz IMD example with about 3% IMD??
 

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Pdxwayne

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Try Pkanes software. You can construct any distortion profile you want. Do one clean, do one dirty, and measure the level difference.
Would you please help confirm my findings? @pkane, please note and comment.

I found that the distort app does not perform distortion setup correctly. For example, I give -45db for second harmonic, I get -55db for second harmonic. I give -103db for 3rd harmonic, and I got -115db.

I took a 1KHz tone and put it though the app. -45db 2nd harmonic, -103db third harmonic, -99 forth harmonic.

Here is the GUI of the distort app:
distort_app_setting_45db_down_at_second_harmonic.PNG



When I use deltawave to compare the distort app created file with original 1khz file, I see the issues. As you can see, all are like 10db or more lower than requested.

orig_1_khz_tone_vs_distort_app.PNG
 

solderdude

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Also, Amir used that to simulate real music playback. What else can I use to illustrate that when bass is loud, high distortion amp likely to contribute to extra db in the highs?

You can't because it doesn't happen unless the amp is clipping or broken.

And why do you keep saying masking issue? I am not saying all freq are at the same volume. I am saying typically bass are louder than treble in songs. Our hearing sensitivity in the highs are much better than the bass, right? Even bass is at 90db, we can hear 1200hz at 65db just fine. If the noise at 1200hz is at 70db, then I am sure I can sense 5+dB increase in 1200hz even when bass are in 90db.

Of course you can hear 1200 Hz at 65dB when bass is at 90dB as there is only 25dB level difference. You can even hear that when 1200 Hz is at 30dB. I am sure you can even hear a 2dB increase in 1200Hz at that point as well.

Here's the thing. The 1200Hz at these levels will be distortion free and close to noise levels. The 90dB bass is still easy to hear.
That bass will have its own harmonics. The speaker will generate its own harmonics as well. The amp will generate harmonics from the bass fundamental note itself + generate harmonics from the harmonics present in the music.
The bass being played has many harmonics from itself. The lower harmonics will be the highest, the higher the harmonic order the more those generated harmonics drop. At the 5th harmonic the contribution from the largest source (in your case the deep bass note) will not be there anymore it is in the noise floor below audibility levels. The amp does not contribute.
The speaker will have the largest distortion by far as shown by the calculations I made earlier the amp does not contribute to that (well 0.0something dB).
That bass note is only present very shortly at a high level. At that point it has a shitload of harmonics. The harmonics from that bass note are much higher in amplitude than the generated harmonics even by the ACA.
As I demonstrated the 'extra energy' from amp generated harmonics in the lower mids is just 0.026dB or so. You can't hear that.

I know what you want to prove, or think I know. When you play loud bass you hear the treble turn 'nasty'. This is not caused by the amp but is acoustic behavior of the speaker, headphone or room itself or an amp clipping or when you have a really nasty amp with tons of IMD you may be hearing that.
Maybe you are listening to a filterless DAC and the speaker or amp really doesn't like the produce >24kHz signals.. There can be plenty of reasons.

In any case... and amp with 0.1% distortion at max. power levels or even measured at 1W won't have 10% distortion in the treble.
The energy in the mids is lower by itself which could generate 2nd, 3rd, and 4th harmonics into the treble range. The bass cannot. Some upper bass harmonics maybe could but these are already down very low and the amp will add virtually no harmonics at lower levels.
IMD from the bass note (the fundamentals) will generate small amplitude poles right next to say a 1.2kHz note. Small and masked. You can't hear those. At least not the ones generated by the amp from the bass.

In the end an amp with 0.1% distortion at full power or at a certain level will not generate 10% at higher frequencies.
What you do see in Amirs plots is that distortion seems to rise in percentage when the signal level gets lower.
Here's the thing.... that rise is the noise floor. The smaller the signal the closer it is to the noise floor. That is what it shows.
Distortion does not increase at smaller levels but actually decreases.

Now we are talking about amps that do not have a crappy or poorly adjusted AB idle current. Those amps will have increased distortion when the level gets smaller. This too can be spotted in plots though and is not the case with modern amps and certainly not with the ACA.

The elephant in the room is the speaker plus the room. It's not the amp unless it is broken or clipping. it certainly isn't the DAC as distortion is already far below audible levels. Only filterless DACs playing 44.1 or 48 without upsampling could, in certain conditions, throw some IM dirt in the music.

In the end blame the speakers not half decent amps. Just read lyric interviews on subjective forums by golden-eared folks with high end equipment. They only hear a wonderful sounding amp. Not a harsh one. And remember they can hear a gnat fart on Mars which we mortals with our cheap Topping gear and LS305 can not.
 
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pma

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Easy. But 3% IMD normal?

Absolutely. Harmonic distortion of 3% is normal in speakers at a medium or higher volume. Harmonic distortion automatically creates intermodulation distortion with difference tone of about same %.
Also, it is normal in many tube amplifiers and again this will create this amount of intermodulation distortion. Yes we all know that in systems with transfer function like speakers or tubes the distortion rises with signal amplitude and it will be lower for small signals and quiet music.
 
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