Best sound quality that you, technically, can get from an FM radio signal is..?

[DanielT]

OK, that is two different stories: one about the way some stations record, and another about the limits to FM technology. As for the latter, I have given up on FM. On balance, I think internet radio often offers a sound quality that is at least as good as FM, if not better, although the imperfections are different from those on FM. So the benefit of an almost infinite number of international stations are too large to ignore. And of course, the bit rate will only go up in future.
In the car we now have DAB+, and that is undeniably better than FM on a car radio, and better than the BT stream from our phones.

Analog FM radio is hardly associated with the future. Norway has phased it out and only distributes via DAB.

It was close that we did the same in Sweden, but there was a discussion about the possibility of sending out information in emergencies to the public. Thus, the introduction of DAB radio fell.

 

[DSJR]

I think the BBC issues go deeper than the broadcast medium. I'm told the FM feed comes off the DAB one in any case and I remember the DAB feed as being very variable. Certainly, streaming from a PC seems to 'sound' better (FM does have a midrange warmth/bloom or colouration as part of the formats distortion I gather). I wish I remembered more, so apologies for being so vague.

 

[sergeauckland]

I think the BBC issues go deeper than the broadcast medium. I'm told the FM feed comes off the DAB one in any case and I remember the DAB feed as being very variable. Certainly, streaming from a PC seems to 'sound' better (FM does have a midrange warmth/bloom or colouration as part of the formats distortion I gather). I wish I remembered more, so apologies for being so vague.

Distribution of signals to BBC FM transmitters is mostly done using NICAM, with some relays rebroadcasting from off-air reception. The received signal isn't demodulated to baseband, but transferred at IF, then upconverted, so avoiding demodulation errors. The degradation compared with a direct feed is small but does depend on a good received signal.

Unless things have changed, all BBC national network radio is processed and encoded in the London Control Room in Broadcasting House and distributed from there, with various backup feeds available.

S

 

[DanielT]

BBC issues... Follow the money? Maybe BBC revenue has declined? Political decisions?

I thought the BBC stood for quality. I think many (at least for non-English people) associate BBC with that. The BBC brand.

I thinke we non-English people really dont have a clue about the BBC's quality nowadays (I learn a little now, in this thread).

Edit:
I do not base my view on the BBC based on Anchorman 2, by the way.

 

[dougi]

Certainly, distribution and transmission also affect potential FM quality. Here in Oz the main public broadcaster uses a range of distribution to transmitter sites, including "landline" using Apt-X codec, satellite using MPEG codec but also other means. Together with the transmitter limits mentioned in this thread quite often there will be additional degradation due to the amplitude and group delay effects of filters used in combining multiple transmitters into the one antenna system. So streaming or a good quality digital transmission can certainly beat FM these days, but some people still like the certain sound it has, whether that be it due to audio processing or FM's inherent limitations.

 

[JeffS7444]

Analog FM radio is hardly associated with the future. Norway has phased it out and only distributes via DAB.

It was close that we did the same in Sweden, but there was a discussion about the possibility of sending out information in emergencies to the public. Thus, the introduction of DAB radio fell.

And maybe DAB works in a country the size of Norway, but in a country the size of the USA, digital-only coverage would be terrible. Even in my urban location, HD Radio reception can be so-so, and over-the-air DTV reception is nonexistent. For emergency communications, my #1 choice would be AM mediumwave because it exists, and can often be heard over vast distances.

 

[restorer-john]

Many of the limitations of FM are at the transmitter end.

Firstly bandwidth is limited to 15kHz with a very steep filter, as it can't be allowed to intrude on the 19khz pilot tone. The transmitter I use is -40dB at 19kHz. Receiver bandwidth is much wider as it has to accommodate the full multiplex signal, then de-emphasise the decoded L&R.

Distortion is around 0.5% at peak deviation, although the latest transmitters can achieve 0.1%. However this is heavily modified by any audio processing like Optimod, where the amount of distortion varies dynamically with frequency and amplitude. Peak clipping is commonplace as it can increase loudness by 1-2dB without it being subjectively too disturbing. CD mastering learnt from FM radio!
Crosstalk rarely betters 40dB, with a perfectly adjusted receiver, and around 30dB more likely. Transmitter crosstalk can be around 55dB, although again modified by the processor.

FM radio transmitting a live concert used to be the highest quality source available to a home listener, but excessive processing to make it usable in cars and on portables have rendered FM now very much a mid-fi source. Internet radio has the potential to be a much higher quality source.

S.

FM radio is severely limited by the characteristics of the transmission, not the receivers.

Your numbers are very pessimistic and plenty of tuners, from many brands left such specs in the weeds in the 1980s.

Here's an excerpt from the service manual of one of my 'better' tuners:

 

[ZolaIII]

I think analog radio grid needs to be well regulated and kept for other reasons (amateur grid) because I knew it's one thing which will stand when everything else fails.

 

[BDWoody]

Your numbers are very pessimistic and plenty of tuners, from many brands left such specs in the weeds in the 1980s.

Here's an excerpt from the service manual of one of my 'better' tuners:

People's Exhibit B

From the old Nakamichi, that I still use and listen to pretty often. We have a few strong stations around, and it sounds pretty good to me. Plus, it's cool.

 

[restorer-john]

People's Exhibit B

View attachment 158474
From the old Nakamichi, that I still use and listen to pretty often. We have a few strong stations around, and it sounds pretty good to me. Plus, it's cool.

View attachment 158475

Absolute classic FM tuner, from an awesome series of components.

 

[Blumlein 88]

People's Exhibit B

View attachment 158474
From the old Nakamichi, that I still use and listen to pretty often. We have a few strong stations around, and it sounds pretty good to me. Plus, it's cool.

View attachment 158475

Cool tuner. Is that one prior to those models with the Schotz noise reduction system?

 

[BDWoody]

Cool tuner. Is that one prior to those models with the Schotz noise reduction system?

Yes, just Dolby on this one.

 

[restorer-john]

Yes, just Dolby on this one.

You can play a Dolby B encoded cassette with Dolby B NR not engaged through a stereo FM transmitter, pick it up on the tuner and operate the Dolby FM function. I did that just for fun with a Dolby equipped Sansui 9090db after I had restored it recently.

 

[DanielT]

This summer it was close. Saw a Pioneer TX 9100 that was advertised for hardly any money at all. The ad had been posted for 15 minutes, but after I read a bit about the Tuner for about 5 minutes and was going to call the seller, it was gone.

And what this means is the finest performance ever offered by a tuner, under all common, and some uncommon, operating circumstances.

Tuner Information Center - Vintage Stereo Tuners

Reviews and photos of vintage stereo tuners, including Kenwood, Sansui, Pioneer, McIntosh, Yamaha, Accuphase, Onkyo, Denon, Rotel, Technics, Tandberg, Magnum Dynalab. Ceramic filter modifications.

www.fmtunerinfo.com

By the way. Why is there no Vintage section on ASR? There seems to be interest. When Amir asked about:
What electronic audio products you want tested most

22.6% so far thinks
Vintage audio products.

What electronic audio products you want tested most

I'd like to see some AVR's. Really soon. The urgency has nothing to do with mine making a noise distinctly like death throes this evening. AVR Processors, I have plenty of NAD 2200's (6 X 2 channels, can bridge them, can run them 2, 4 or 8 ohms. Have no need or desire for crappy sound from an AVR.

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Hayabusa]

FM also has de/pre-emphasis, this means headroom for frequencies above ~5KHz is limited.
Current car radios use DSP demodulation/MPX decoding. In theory you could get very low distortion with DSP.

 

[DanielT]

(FM does have a midrange warmth/bloom or colouration as part of the formats distortion I gather).

Idea!

Let it be said that what you say is true. Buy an old analog tuner instead of expensive tube amplifier. Get tube kind of sound with it and a transistor amplifier.Whatever "tube sound" is. If it even exists. A colored little distortion sound perhaps?

Just kidding now. But well what do I know..If there is now a little coloring of the sound you are looking for.

Supermodern top-performing DAC, lossless streaming with modern amplifier / speakers and when the urge falls on switch to the old vintage analog tuner.

 

[restorer-john]

By the way. Why is there no Vintage section on ASR? There seems to be interest. When Amir asked about:
What electronic audio products you want tested most

22.6% so far thinks
Vintage audio products.

When @amirm buys me an APX-555B, I'll be happy to moderate, test and run the vintage section on ASR.

Seriously, we need to bring to the table extensive testing of vintage gear, especially comparing historic technical reviews with examples that are now many decades old. Especially the classics from the past and legendary products. I have many in my collection and there's a large number of members with really interesting and valuable vintage pieces.

But, vintage HiFi is bigger, heavier and more valuable (in many cases) than a lot of the current crop of mini components. As such, there are significant risks in shipping. A typical large power amplifier can weigh in at 20-40kg- imagine the freight/insurance costs for that? And if they are damaged/lost- they cannot be replaced. You lose a Topping DAC- just get another on Amazon. Can't do that with vintage gear.

And you go and soak test a 45 year old power amplifier at full power and take out the output stage, you have serious problems sourcing parts and repairing the item for the owner. So, not as simple as you'd think.

 

[DanielT]

When @amirm buys me an APX-555B, I'll be happy to moderate, test and run the vintage section on ASR.

Seriously, we need to bring to the table extensive testing of vintage gear, especially comparing historic technical reviews with examples that are now many decades old. Especially the classics from the past and legendary products. I have many in my collection and there's a large number of members with really interesting and valuable vintage pieces.

But, vintage HiFi is bigger, heavier and more valuable (in many cases) than a lot of the current crop of mini components. As such, there are significant risks in shipping. A typical large power amplifier can weigh in at 20-40kg- imagine the freight/insurance costs for that? And if they are damaged/lost- they cannot be replaced. You lose a Topping DAC- just get another on Amazon. Can't do that with vintage gear.

And you go and soak test a 45 year old power amplifier at full power and take out the output stage, you have serious problems sourcing parts and repairing the item for the owner. So, not as simple as you'd think.

You have absolutely good points when it comes to logistics and transport, and that vintage can be fragile. Take out transport insurance? I do not know how it works with it in the US? Costs ? Then it will probably not be easy to calculate the value of damaged old unusual vintage hifi.

But then a section where vintage, in general, is addressed? This thread is a good example of that. The discussion about some different vintage tuners would have fit perfectly as a thread on a vintage section.

This thread, for example, I do not know if it fits where I published it. It would have fit well on a vintage section.

Power amplifier Fostex 600?

(not mine in the picture, same modell) Anyone have experience with, know anything about a vintage power amplifier Fostex 600? https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/fostex/600.shtml Got it very cheap this summer. It's right with my friend for a recap operation now. I'll see how it turns...

audiosciencereview.com

Edit:
sourcing parts ... spare parts can be requested in a vintage section. Now there are probably already a lot of dedicated DIY vintage pages on the internet. But still maybe it would be something for ASR ..

 

[Mart68]

Edit:
I do not base my view on the BBC based on Anchorman 2, by the way.

I thought that was pretty accurate.

 

[DanielT]

I thought that was pretty accurate.

Lol 1:00 min into the clip. Stupid and silly so that the bells stop ..... of course wonderful.

.... Entertainment news is an abomination...... In the name of Margaret Thatcher, I sentence you to death.

BBC in action.