Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)

[Music1969]

Are you saying the 9038PRO converts the DSD to PCM (for volume control) then outputs PCM-based analog or does it re-convert to DSD then apply the 50,70,90kHz filter for analog output?

If you watch this very new RME video about their switch to ESS, see his comment about DSD Direct. Especially last comment.

Let me know if it makes you certain about what ESS does to DSD - or still uncertain

 

[David_M]

If you watch this very new RME video about their switch to ESS, see his comment about DSD Direct. Especially last comment.

Let me know if it makes you certain about what ESS does to DSD - or still uncertain

He said no DSD to PCM conversion happens in the ESS chip. How ESS does volume control without PCM conversion is their trade secret.

 

[alexopth1512]

I just have received my DAC and I am a little disappointed.

i owned till now a "half the price of D90SE" DAC and I was very satisfied. I am an audio enthusiast for more than 30 years. Till recently I didn't give much attention to digital world, since always seemed dull compared to my analogue sources.
Lately seeing the highres audio etc, started to look into it to see if I can get decent sound from digital sources. I found out that things are really getting better, so I bought a lot of hires music (i prefer to have it than streaming). I was quite happy with the outcome, even if analogue is still better but I could now listen with pleasure to digital audio. My previous DAC has as said half of the price of D90SE.
Since I try always to upgrade my audio, I decided based on the reviews here to buy the D90SE. A very disappointing experience, expected a lot more. I was balancing if I will write this post but I decided to do it, even if I am expecting flame...

So let's start.
System accompanying the DAC: Nordost SPM reference cables (tried also OCC Oyaide and Neotech), Symphonic Line RG-3 turbo preamp, 1 KW pure Class A monoblocks, Magnepan 3.6, Focal Aria 948 and Focal Grand Utopia.

Good things:
Quiet: The quietest solution ever! It is THAT quiet that you think your ears have problem.
Detail: Yes, there is detail, unquestionably. In certain areas of the frequency ranges there is more detail than my current DAC.
Bass: A LOT of control. It never looses control. Good extend.
Stage: You can tell the very exact instrument/organ position. Too much focus and precision. Best I have ever heard in digital.
Filters: They do make difference #3, gives more treble and better voices but reduces a little sharpness of stage
IMD: This DAC produces the cleanest sound when a lot of organs play together. Excellent, you can listen to metal and rock with no fatigue.

Bad things:
Stage: The stage does not have the proper extent. In my setup, normally the extend of the stage is more than 4 meters. Somehow, it was shrunk a little. However, as I said had the best precision. Another thing was that precision in depth was not so good as in width and height.
Live experience: I couldn't get persuaded that I had a live stage experience. Curiously enough my cheaper DAC does.
Voices: Female voices lacked the proper warmth that sometimes have in certain songs and they got a little "far", this gets together with the "live experience" issue
Fading: I noticed that sometimes notes are not properly fading away, especially when they have tremolo and at the same time fade away, an effect like a compression thing. This is important to me for a hi end experience, since my SE Class A amplifiers manage not to loose these fading notes when are there and this feature is exquisite to my ears.


The above was a three day test so far, I will listen to the DAC a lot more and see what happens. It seems I will search for an even better DAC. Don't misunderstand me, it is a great DAC but it was not what I expected to be, based on the reviews.

 

[lovesegfault]

I just have received my DAC and I am a little disappointed.

i owned till now a "half the price of D90SE" DAC and I was very satisfied. I am an audio enthusiast for more than 30 years. Till recently I didn't give much attention to digital world, since always seemed dull compared to my analogue sources.
Lately seeing the highres audio etc, started to look into it to see if I can get decent sound from digital sources. I found out that things are really getting better, so I bought a lot of hires music (i prefer to have it than streaming). I was quite happy with the outcome, even if analogue is still better but I could now listen with pleasure to digital audio. My previous DAC has as said half of the price of D90SE.
Since I try always to upgrade my audio, I decided based on the reviews here to buy the D90SE. A very disappointing experience, expected a lot more. I was balancing if I will write this post but I decided to do it, even if I am expecting flame...

So let's start.
System accompanying the DAC: Nordost SPM reference cables (tried also OCC Oyaide and Neotech), Symphonic Line RG-3 turbo preamp, 1 KW pure Class A monoblocks, Magnepan 3.6, Focal Aria 948 and Focal Grand Utopia.

Good things:
Quiet: The quietest solution ever! It is THAT quiet that you think your ears have problem.
Detail: Yes, there is detail, unquestionably. In certain areas of the frequency ranges there is more detail than my current DAC.
Bass: A LOT of control. It never looses control. Good extend.
Stage: You can tell the very exact instrument/organ position. Too much focus and precision. Best I have ever heard in digital.
Filters: They do make difference #3, gives more treble and better voices but reduces a little sharpness of stage
IMD: This DAC produces the cleanest sound when a lot of organs play together. Excellent, you can listen to metal and rock with no fatigue.

Bad things:
Stage: The stage does not have the proper extent. In my setup, normally the extend of the stage is more than 4 meters. Somehow, it was shrunk a little. However, as I said had the best precision. Another thing was that precision in depth was not so good as in width and height.
Live experience: I couldn't get persuaded that I had a live stage experience. Curiously enough my cheaper DAC does.
Voices: Female voices lacked the proper warmth that sometimes have in certain songs and they got a little "far", this gets together with the "live experience" issue
Fading: I noticed that sometimes notes are not properly fading away, especially when they have tremolo and at the same time fade away, an effect like a compression thing. This is important to me for a hi end experience, since my SE Class A amplifiers manage not to loose these fading notes when are there and this feature is exquisite to my ears.


The above was a three day test so far, I will listen to the DAC a lot more and see what happens. It seems I will search for an even better DAC. Don't misunderstand me, it is a great DAC but it was not what I expected to be, based on the reviews.

With the price point of the rest of your chain you might be interested in the Holo Audio May + HQPlayer upsampling. It wouldn't have better measured performance than the D90SE, I don't think, but plenty of people have & love the combo.

 

[alexopth1512]

With the price point of the rest of your chain you might be interested in the Holo Audio May + HQPlayer upsampling. It wouldn't have better measured performance than the D90SE, I don't think, but plenty of people have & love the combo.

Very interesting indeed! Thanx! There is also a rep in my country! This time I will listen before I buy

 

[Dipypang]

Also, DAC mode makes the D90SE volume Fixed. This is convenient if you are running the D90SE through a pre amp.

When do i know if i need a preamp like the pre90?

 

[lovesegfault]

When do i know if i need a preamp like the pre90?

You could want a pre-amp when you have multiple inputs to a single output (e.g. turntable, DAC, tape deck all feeding into a single amp), and/or if you have a power amp without volume control (e.g. Schiit Aegir).

 

[Eddy H.]

When do i know if i need a preamp like the pre90?

I have the d90se hooked up to a pre90 and it adds alot to the sound stage. They were made for each other.

 

[Music1969]

So let's start.
System accompanying the DAC

What is this mystery DAC though? Please share details

 

[rlwings]

When do i know if i need a preamp like the pre90?

The preamp in the D90SE is pretty good (quiet). Personally I have my D90SE set in 'DAC mode' and going through the newer Marantz model 30 integrated amp and the sound is sublime.... Some say that preamps can alter the sound to taste based on a manufacturer's technology and signal handling. ie. Marantz's HDAM tech, etc...

 

[alexopth1512]

What is this mystery DAC though? Please share details

I didn't want to tell initially because I didn't want to sound like I was promoting it. Well, anyway it is an SMSL500. But as I said there are many areas that d90SE is better but SMSL was surprisingly good.
My first DAC was a SMSL300, as my first step to digital world, which was decent, 500 is really better than 300.

 

[raif71]

I didn't want to tell initially because I didn't want to sound like I was promoting it. Well, anyway it is an SMSL500. But as I said there are many areas that d90SE is better but SMSL was surprisingly good.
My first DAC was a SMSL300, as my first step to digital world, which was decent, 500 is really better than 300.

The Topping D90se and SMSL M500 both uses the ESS 9038Pro so I suppose in terms of audible differences, none should be there and both measure well. I bought the M500 used and have enjoyed using it

 

[Music1969]

The Topping D90se and SMSL M500 both uses the ESS 9038Pro so I suppose in terms of audible differences, none should be there

We don't listen directly to the output of the DAC chip. There is a lot of really important stuff between the DAC chip and the XLR/RCA/headphone outputs.

But yes both measure really well.

 

[Eetu]

I just have received my DAC and I am a little disappointed.

i owned till now a "half the price of D90SE" DAC and I was very satisfied. I am an audio enthusiast for more than 30 years. Till recently I didn't give much attention to digital world, since always seemed dull compared to my analogue sources.
Lately seeing the highres audio etc, started to look into it to see if I can get decent sound from digital sources. I found out that things are really getting better, so I bought a lot of hires music (i prefer to have it than streaming). I was quite happy with the outcome, even if analogue is still better but I could now listen with pleasure to digital audio. My previous DAC has as said half of the price of D90SE.
Since I try always to upgrade my audio, I decided based on the reviews here to buy the D90SE. A very disappointing experience, expected a lot more. I was balancing if I will write this post but I decided to do it, even if I am expecting flame...

So let's start.
System accompanying the DAC: Nordost SPM reference cables (tried also OCC Oyaide and Neotech), Symphonic Line RG-3 turbo preamp, 1 KW pure Class A monoblocks, Magnepan 3.6, Focal Aria 948 and Focal Grand Utopia.

Good things:
Quiet: The quietest solution ever! It is THAT quiet that you think your ears have problem.
Detail: Yes, there is detail, unquestionably. In certain areas of the frequency ranges there is more detail than my current DAC.
Bass: A LOT of control. It never looses control. Good extend.
Stage: You can tell the very exact instrument/organ position. Too much focus and precision. Best I have ever heard in digital.
Filters: They do make difference #3, gives more treble and better voices but reduces a little sharpness of stage
IMD: This DAC produces the cleanest sound when a lot of organs play together. Excellent, you can listen to metal and rock with no fatigue.

Bad things:
Stage: The stage does not have the proper extent. In my setup, normally the extend of the stage is more than 4 meters. Somehow, it was shrunk a little. However, as I said had the best precision. Another thing was that precision in depth was not so good as in width and height.
Live experience: I couldn't get persuaded that I had a live stage experience. Curiously enough my cheaper DAC does.
Voices: Female voices lacked the proper warmth that sometimes have in certain songs and they got a little "far", this gets together with the "live experience" issue
Fading: I noticed that sometimes notes are not properly fading away, especially when they have tremolo and at the same time fade away, an effect like a compression thing. This is important to me for a hi end experience, since my SE Class A amplifiers manage not to loose these fading notes when are there and this feature is exquisite to my ears.


The above was a three day test so far, I will listen to the DAC a lot more and see what happens. It seems I will search for an even better DAC. Don't misunderstand me, it is a great DAC but it was not what I expected to be, based on the reviews.

My suggestion is this: repeat the DAC comparison blind, ask someone to switch them for you. You would also need to match them by measuring the volume in-room or, better yet, using a multimeter.

Oh and a longer time period will not reveal differences, instantaneous level matched switching will (if there's any..). The M500 and D90SE should sound exactly the same when volume matched (assuming correct filters).

IMO you are giving DACs in general way too much credit in regards how much they can change sound/signal properties.

Since you are looking to improve your system here's what I would do: sell the fancy cables, replace them with something inexpensive like Canare Star Quad and get MiniDSP SHD Studio with Dirac. This would enable you to continue using your favorite DAC(s) but with SOTA digital room correction. A bigger impact than any DAC can make.

I'm jealous of your speakers though

 

[alexopth1512]

My suggestion is this: repeat the DAC comparison blind, ask someone to switch them for you. You would also need to match them by measuring the volume in-room or, better yet, using a multimeter.

Oh and a longer time period will not reveal differences, instantaneous level matched switching will (if there's any..). The M500 and D90SE should sound exactly the same when volume matched (assuming correct filters).

IMO you are giving DACs in general way too much credit in regards how much they can change sound/signal properties.

Since you are looking to improve your system here's what I would do: sell the fancy cables, replace them with something inexpensive like Canare Star Quad and get MiniDSP SHD Studio with Dirac. This would enable you to continue using your favorite DAC(s) but with SOTA digital room correction. A bigger impact than any DAC can make.

I'm jealous of your speakers though

Well, I am an unfortunate guy that can hear the difference in cables and I have tested numerous of them in years before I ended up in Nordost. So I will keep them.
Unfortunately too, SMSL500 and D90 do not sound they same, they are WAY different, I am sorry.
In general I trust my ears but I have the most ultimate judge/tester of all: My wife (and lately my daughter). She has no idea what a DAC is but she can understand the difference in no time... I sometimes have her do the blind tests (She will do the DACs for sure), sometimes I tell her nothing. For example when I changed the Symphonic Lines KRAFT power Amps with thew new ones, she looked at me and said WOW! that sounds amazing..
Anyway, I will give it time and of course many many tests - in any case I enjoy the process

 

[MC_RME]

He said no DSD to PCM conversion happens in the ESS chip.

I did not say that. I intentionally said vaguely 'it is said' and 'if so then'. ESS does not have ANY documentation about this topic. That ESS chips have 'DSD volume control' was brought up by Mytek's Michal Jurewicz, for example in an Q&A with Michael Lavorgna for AudioStream, June 11 2014. Now if you present 5 developers who understand this stuff with the (not confirmed and as such questionable) technical background you will get 5 opinions if that is a real DSD volume control or not. So as long as ESS does not feel committed to make a clear statement about it I will keep up the vague 'maybe' info that even went into the ADI-2 DAC manual.

 

[Phorize]

Well, I am an unfortunate guy that can hear the difference in cables and I have tested numerous of them in years before I ended up in Nordost. So I will keep them.
Unfortunately too, SMSL500 and D90 do not sound they same, they are WAY different, I am sorry.
In general I trust my ears but I have the most ultimate judge/tester of all: My wife (and lately my daughter). She has no idea what a DAC is but she can understand the difference in no time... I sometimes have her do the blind tests (She will do the DACs for sure), sometimes I tell her nothing. For example when I changed the Symphonic Lines KRAFT power Amps with thew new ones, she looked at me and said WOW! that sounds amazing..
Anyway, I will give it time and of course many many tests - in any case I enjoy the process

Not a flame. If there is a reason to treat the experience that you report as relevant to DAC performance, why did the AES 17 2020 standard not adopt your test methods?

 

[Eetu]

Well, I am an unfortunate guy that can hear the difference in cables and I have tested numerous of them in years before I ended up in Nordost. So I will keep them.
Unfortunately too, SMSL500 and D90 do not sound they same, they are WAY different, I am sorry.
In general I trust my ears but I have the most ultimate judge/tester of all: My wife (and lately my daughter). She has no idea what a DAC is but she can understand the difference in no time... I sometimes have her do the blind tests (She will do the DACs for sure), sometimes I tell her nothing. For example when I changed the Symphonic Lines KRAFT power Amps with thew new ones, she looked at me and said WOW! that sounds amazing..
Anyway, I will give it time and of course many many tests - in any case I enjoy the process

So many audiophile cliches in one comment

 

[Veri]

So many audiophile cliches in one comment

I sometimes wonder how people end up here just to over-confidently go against the grain.

Is it just to ruffle some feathers? Or to convince themselves of their empirical "truths"?

 

[Music1969]

I did not say that. I intentionally said vaguely 'it is said' and 'if so then'. ESS does not have ANY documentation about this topic. That ESS chips have 'DSD volume control' was brought up by Mytek's Michal Jurewicz, for example in an Q&A with Michael Lavorgna for AudioStream, June 11 2014. Now if you present 5 developers who understand this stuff with the (not confirmed and as such questionable) technical background you will get 5 opinions if that is a real DSD volume control or not. So as long as ESS does not feel committed to make a clear statement about it I will keep up the vague 'maybe' info that even went into the ADI-2 DAC manual.

Bingo.

This is why @David_M my reply to your question to @JohnYang1997 was:

"I don't think even the DAC designer can tell you exactly how, because ESS chips have been described as being 'a black box' for many many years, in regards to DSD handling."