I've heard good things about the Vela 408's. How do those compare to a B&W 804 D3/D4?
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Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)
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I think that statement hits the nail on the head, find decent specs and the rest is up to you.
tmtomh
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My comment wasn’t tailored to you, but to this forum in general.
If music reproduction was 100% science, that would be correct. Unfortunately, for now (and some might even say forever), playback technology is both a science AND an art, which makes referring to a subjective expert like Mr. Harley necessary for a thorough evaluation.
tmtomh
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I can agree with you that music reproduction is not 100% science (although I think that claim would ideally be more meaningful it if were more precisely explained and defined). But that doesn't automatically mean you haven't engaged in the Argument from Authority fallacy, which you have.
I'm not sure I'd call playback technology an art, but I take your point here.
This is where we disagree. This is straight-up Argument from Authority. And why would you want to take a stranger's subjective impressions as your guide when you could instead take your own subjective impressions as your guide?
staticV3
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Music reproduction is as much an art as video reproduction is.
Are you shopping for TVs based on which model has the most artistic house look? The most ethereal highlight fall-off?
I hope not.
The best TV is one which reproduces images with the greatest accuracy and the least artifacts. One which comes closest to the reference monitor used for the final color grading, before the movie was burned to Blu-Ray.
Why should audio be any different?
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Exactly. I never hear somebody choosing a screen because it is more “visual” (parallel to “musical”) than another TV.
I often think we conflate enjoyment of audio with accuracy in audio. Accuracy is measurable and can be objectively determined. Enjoyment is subjective and often involves more factors than reproduction accuracy.
At ASR, we tend to focus on accuracy first because enjoyment can be subjective.
At ASR, we tend to focus on accuracy first because enjoyment can be subjective.
Yet people will take a great TV home and then go into the menu where there are different color temperature settings, gamma controls, sharpness, brightness, just to name a few...and set their video to their own taste. Lets not even go into interpolation (soap opera effect)....
Bottom line will always be - does it please the consumer that bought it.
staticV3
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Sure, having the ability to fine-tune the equipment to taste is always welcome, but the baseline should always be an objectively neutral reference, to which the user can fall back.
This reference is well defined for speakers, displays, DACs, Amps, and pretty well defined for headphones IMO.
Killingbeans
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Others will hire a professional to do a calibration of their TV.
Killingbeans
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The setting of a personal goal for the properties of a playback system might not be completely governed by science, but reaching that goal can definitely be done 100% through such.
I think the main reason why people prefer taking huge detours using trial and error, with questionable conclusions as guideposts, is because it feels more fun an engaging.
It's a hobby.
Nobody (well.. most) don't want it to be practical. If audio reproduction is just a tool (a means to an end if you will) then setting it up becomes work/a job and not much of a hobby. I get a feeling that's why people keep insisting on audio reproduction gear being an art form, just like the music information it's reproducing. People get far more satisfaction from the idea of the countless hours they've spent on the hobby contributing to/heightening the artistic expression, rather than simply having set up a machine to do a job effectively.
That's probably also why the moronic idea of "everything matters" took hold so easily and opened the floodgates for scammy snake-oil products. Anything and everything you did to your system could suddenly be a part of the experience, and make you more accomplished
I actually like your post...the good and the bad...especially the comment about snake-oil products. For all the expensive gear that I own, my cables are common 14 gauge speaker cables. Now I do have some of those thick power cables ....because they look good (LOL)...but I only pay about 20 bucks for those.The setting of a personal goal for the properties of a playback system might not be completely governed by science, but reaching that goal can definitely be done 100% through such.
I think the main reason why people prefer taking huge detours using trial and error, with questionable conclusions as guideposts, is because it feels more fun an engaging.
It's a hobby.
Nobody (well.. most) don't want it to be practical. If audio reproduction is just a tool (a means to an end if you will) then setting it up becomes work/a job and not much of a hobby. I get a feeling that's why people keep insisting on audio reproduction gear being an art form, just like the music information it's reproducing. People get far more satisfaction from the idea of the countless hours they've spent on the hobby contributing to/heightening the artistic expression, rather than simply having set up a machine to do a job effectively.
That's probably also why the moronic idea of "everything matters" took hold so easily and opened the floodgates for scammy snake-oil products. Anything and everything you did to your system could suddenly be a part of the experience, and make you more accomplished
Aesthetics can be just as large a factor in owner satisfaction as audible accuracy - sometimes even larger.
This is one reason why a person might opt to buy D90SE (or D90 III) versus a less expensive D50s (or D50 III) for non-I2S applications. DACs are all so good now that aesthetics and ancillary features dominate the differences.
This is one reason why a person might opt to buy D90SE (or D90 III) versus a less expensive D50s (or D50 III) for non-I2S applications. DACs are all so good now that aesthetics and ancillary features dominate the differences.
I have a problem with the D90se, I have more sound on one side than the other. I did a reset of the DAC but it didn't change anything. I tested another DAC and I don't have this issue. It started the night before last, I tested the optical, the USB from the PC, and checked the balance, it's well centered. It happens both with headphones and speakers.
Roland68
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The balance can't be shifted at the source?
If you can rule that out, just switch the analog cables on the D90SE from left to right (only on the D90SE, not on the amplifier). If the phenomenon shifts with the cables, it can only be due to the DAC.
PenguinMusic
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Hi,
From my point of view, there is something that should be mentioned.
A DAC can probably be measured precisely because it is "digital".
A pre-amp and amp can probably also be measured more or less precisely despite them being analog.
But the main factor to "enjoy" music in the end is the "reproductor" : loudspeaker or headphone.
And measure those is quite a challenge :-(
Position of the headphones on your ear, wearing glasses, having a seal broken, having the HP too low ot too high on your head, having a bunch of hairs between the speaker and your ear... I think Amir does say it himslef when he writes that for some headphones he has problems adjusting the headphone to have a "good seal"... Just think about Oratory and how changing ears pads can alter measurments and turn a headphone from almost crap to almost perfect !
Position of the loudspeaker (close to a wall, close to a corner, next to a window, position in the room, resonances of the room...) make all measurement a little vain as how the end result will be in the end consumer's room/head. And how it will sound.
Thus, measurements are science for sure. And they tell about the capacity of a device to reproduce what's on the initial source (CD, BR, stream...).
Do they tell how you will like the sound in the end ? I doubt it.
I, for instance, do not like "heavy bass". I love deep low bass when it is controlled and does not eat up the rest of the musical message.
Measurements will tell me if a headphone will be "tailored" to my linkings... But those are just personal likings.
In the end, I almost always end up taking the reference Harman curve, and reduce the bass line slightly and I indeed achieve a sound that I like because it is "balanced"...
And measurements may of course be an indicator to "Does your device reproduce the sound as it was conceived by the engineer that mastered the record ?".
Eveything else is pure BS unless the "listener" was in the room and took part in the mixing and mastering of the record...
Regards.
Actually, both can be measured with equal precision, in common with all other electronics.
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