Mark Waldrep In Trouble AGAIN

[Blumlein 88]

No, it wouldn´t be huge news as it is known since approximately 100 years (maybe even more).....
I don´t know if you - as SIY maybe did - missed that Mark Waldrep addressed the possibly interfering high frequency noise? I´ve mentioned it too in one of my posts in this thread.

Additionally i don´t know what kind of audio decive was hooked up to "demonstrate" the various power cords, as it was not mentioned.
Before not knowing it and before not knowing about the mains related RF noise i wouldn´t rule out anything.

And reading Marc Waldrep´s post i got the impressions that he recorded the whole MQA related part but that he - in the power cord case - only recorded the music samples but not the talk.

Yeah that's some high frequency noise alright. Enough to amount to 2 db increases. And apparently there is more noise on the expensive cords too!

I had assumed you were saying some cord constructions would have less high frequency response than others. Certainly possible, but also irrelevant as a power cord.

 

[Sal1950]

Well of course he got kicked out. I wouldn't have even given him that first chance they gave him. Nobody wants some undercover detective at an event they are hosting. Unprofessional behavior. If he wanted to actually do this, he should have gotten permission or at least let them know. The way the internet works, now the only thing people now know out of whatever gathering they had was his shenanigans not the actual event itself. Of course the show organizers don't want that.

Who's talking about the cheaters? I couldn't care about them.

Then who do you want to inform, the organizers? You think they're on the up and up?
They wouldn't have responded as they did if the integrity of the presentations to their members was upmost in their priorities.

 

[Jakob1863]

Yeah that's some high frequency noise alright. Enough to amount to 2 db increases. And apparently there is more noise on the expensive cords too!

I had assumed you were saying some cord constructions would have less high frequency response than others. Certainly possible, but also irrelevant as a power cord.

Please try to concentrate only on the informations given in the blog:
"He did the usual things including hooking up an audio circuit to a power outlet and showing us all the incredible amount of noise on the line — noise that never gets converted into the DC power sources used in your components. This is a red herring argument. "

So we have an audio circuit hooked up to a power outlet, but we don´t know which kind of audio circuit it was.
Reportedly the "incredible amount of noise on the line was shown" but we don´t know which way it was shown; by the audio circuit? By diagrams or measurement device?

And we know that Marc Waldrep thinks "the line noise never gets converted into the DC power sources...." which isn´t a useful description; if it should mean that you can´t find the "incredible line noise" in audio components after the psu it is factually wrong.

"He then demonstrated 4 different power cords ranging in price from a few dollars (a typical IEC cable like the ones included in the box) to about $17,000 for the Nordost Odin 2 Power Cable. The two cables from his company were $750 and $4000 — a mere fraction of the price of the Nordost. I brought along a reference quality microphone and portable recording device which I kept out of view as I recorded the music selections powered through the different cables. "

Ok, four different power cords, an "ordinary one" , two from the competitior guy and one "Nordost Odin 2 Power cable" and Marc brought along a "reference quality microphone" and recording device which he kept out of view (behind his/somebody´s back? In a bag/pocket?).
He recorded the music selections "powered through the different cables" .

"As if by magic, the IEC power cord measured 2.5 dB SPL lower than the others. The most expensive cable — the Nordost Odin 2 — was louder by a substantial amount than the Dragon and Thunder cables the competitors provided. "

So the IEC power cord measured 2,5 dB lower than the others and the Nordost Odin 2 was "louder by a substantial amount " than the two from the competitor. What does substantial amount mean? Again 2.5 dB louder? Even more? So we are talking overall from "ordinary iec cord" to Nordost Odin 2 about how much 5 dB? Or an even larger range? Or was substantial lower than 2.5 dB

"When I asked the other person measuring the SPL in the room, he concurred with me. “I saw about 2 dB difference,” he whispered. "

Did he saw 2 dB difference between the ordinary cord and the others or did he saw the 2 dB difference between the others and the Nordost?

There is imo a lot that we don´t know and therefore i wrote, i wouldn´t rule out anything before knowing what really happened.

 

[Sal1950]

Have you talked to anyone about the physics? No way, no how you can attenuate high frequencies with a power cord. If such simple objective data existed it would be huge news. Instead no power cable has remotely shown such.

If you wrap a power cord around a trolls neck, then hang it in a tree, it will definitely attenuate it's high frequencies.

 

[garbulky]

Then who do you want to inform, the organizers? You think they're on the up and up?
They wouldn't have responded as they did if the integrity of the presentations to their members was upmost in their priorities.

I don't want to inform anybody. I'm not him. I also don't care what their priorities are.

 

[Jakob1863]

If you wrap a power cord around a trolls neck, then hang it in a tree, it will definitely attenuate it's high frequencies.

I guess that is the friendly forum where people just have fun that armim so proudly presented to me.

 

[Cosmik]

In those earlier articles his mistake is in naming the brands and stating the accusations as facts. He cannot possibly state with objective certainty that the music was louder the second time. He may be right, but he is living in a parallel universe if he thinks he can go around naming and shaming in print on the basis of his own subjective perceptions and suspicions.

As someone in the articles' comments points out, there may be a reliable psychological effect whereby concentrating on music, taking a pause and then repeating it while prompting the listener with an expectation makes it sound better anyway. If this is the case, then surely any sales pitch that involves playing extracts, pausing, swapping to an expensive cable and playing the track again is on the same continuum of sharp practice already.

And very little different from simply making expensive cables look better cosmetically than cheap cables... Or offering the customer a glass of wine on the way in.

And if there's a proven relationship between louder and better, then he can't rule out the possibility that he mistook better for louder

 

[restorer-john]

I don´t know about the time before, but i can remember that at least in Germany the main part of the industry was very happy to sell loudspeakers that were "digital ready" to withstand the "extreme dynamics" of the then new CDs just introduced.

This was perfectly valid. Prior to the introduction of digital (CD), most speakers had paper-former midranges and tweeters and many woofer had phenolic formers with little or no ability to absorb decent high or extreme low frequency content- as it simply wasn't there. CD provided the ability to have full level, high frequency content at or above the top end of our hearing.

In the first years of CD, many speakers simply couldn't handle the dynamics or the frequency extension. Many tweeters expired on the first uncompressed cymbal crash. Woofer coils regularly de-laminated and aluminium, Nomex and Kapton formers became the norm very quickly. Ferrofluid helped with mids and treble units, along with metal formers and tighter magnet gaps to aid dissipation.

Speakers evolved very quickly once digital hit.

 

[Cosmik]

This was perfectly valid. Prior to the introduction of digital (CD), most speakers had paper-former midranges and tweeters and many woofer had phenolic formers with little or no ability to absorb decent high or extreme low frequency content- as it simply wasn't there. CD provided the ability to have full level, high frequency content at or above the top end of our hearing.

In the first years of CD, many speakers simply couldn't handle the dynamics or the frequency extension. Many tweeters expired on the first uncompressed cymbal crash. Woofer coils regularly de-laminated and aluminium, Nomex and Kapton formers became the norm very quickly. Ferrofluid helped with mids and treble units, along with metal formers and tighter magnet gaps to aid dissipation.

Speakers evolved very quickly once digital hit.

And yet many people swear that early CD sounded bad but is much better now. And apparently amplifiers in the 80s with perfect measurements sounded terrible. Are they remembering the amps and the CD players, or just the speakers? (Or, more likely it's all in their minds anyway...)

 

[restorer-john]

And yet many people swear that early CD sounded bad but is much better now. And apparently amplifiers in the 80s with perfect measurements sounded terrible. Are they remembering the amps and the CD players, or just the speakers?

Having an enormous equipment collection and spanning many decades of service and sales, I can confidently say that speakers have always been the weakest link. Speakers definitely improved en-mass through the mid 1980s, but when we are converting less than a few percent of the electrical energy to sound, there is clearly a lot of room for improvement yet to come.

CD players were great from day one. Some of the content wasn't.

Laboratory grade amplifiers sometimes simply don't play well with tough loads- I have some that are flawless on my bench and unstable in the real world, including a few DC-Daylight power amplifiers from Denon with specs to die for.

 

[SIY]

Laboratory grade amplifiers sometimes simply don't play well with tough loads

I will attest that the APx1701 power amplifiers seem happy with just about everything I've thrown at them.

I have to admit a great sense of mixed ennui and amusement at the usual long-winded excuse-making in some of the earlier posts. Nothing worth commenting on, just amusing.

 

[amirm]

The manufacturer can only counter the data if they themselves took measurements of the same demonstration (which I presume they did not)... OR if they can provide data that shows their cables result in an approx. 2.5dB amplitude increase in amplifier output. Or if they can find fault in Mark's measurements (which is unlikely but cannot be excluded).

They can do a lot more than that.

1. They can make an assertion that no attempt was made to change volume.

2. Invite Mark to an event and run the test again with him having his microphone setup again.

As it is, they are hiding behind the bushes letting the user group chair do the battling for them. This is very wrong. The show organizers had nothing to do with this. To use them to put pressure on Mark is wrong.

 

[restorer-john]

I will attest that the APx1701 power amplifiers seem happy with just about everything I've thrown at them.

Interesting rating, is there active current limiting in the power stage? :

100 W (1 channel into 8 Ω)
60 W (1 channel into 4 Ω)
30 Vrms (2 channels into ≥15 Ω)

 

[amirm]

No, it wouldn´t be huge news as it is known since approximately 100 years (maybe even more).....
I don´t know if you - as SIY maybe did - missed that Mark Waldrep addressed the possibly interfering high frequency noise? I´ve mentioned it too in one of my posts in this thread.

What on earth are you saying? Please be clear. Are you saying different power cords change the output of an audio device in high frequencies? If so, where is that data?

 

[SIY]

Interesting rating, is there active current limiting in the power stage? :

Yes, indeed.

 

[restorer-john]

1. They can make an assertion that no attempt was made to change volume.

2. Invite Mark to an event and run the test again with him having his microphone setup again.

Perhaps the tracks themselves were recorded at different levels and no-one actually touched the volume control. (two+ identical tracks, one recorded 2.5dB higher). That's what I would do if I was trying to 'scam' the room. Nobody would see the track numbers as they were likely on a source device the audience couldn't see.

 

[amirm]

Perhaps the tracks themselves were recorded at different levels and no-one actually touched the volume control. (two+ identical tracks, one recorded 2.5dB higher). That's what I would do if I was trying to 'scam' the room. Nobody would see the track numbers as they were likely on a source device the audience couldn't see.

Yes that was the suspicion in Mark's last venture of this sort.

 

[Cosmik]

They can do a lot more than that.

1. They can make an assertion that no attempt was made to change volume.

2. Invite Mark to an event and run the test again with him having his microphone setup again.

As it is, they are hiding behind the bushes letting the user group chair do the battling for them. This is very wrong. The show organizers had nothing to do with this. To use them to put pressure on Mark is wrong.

But you can't make it a general policy that anyone can go around saying anything they like on the basis of 'suspicions' and then put the onus on the company to prove the suspicions groundless.

(Obviously you know that I am not susceptible to cable scams and I make a blanket statement that all audiophile cables are 100% ripoffs, but if such products are 'legal' and manufactured by real, actual businesses that pay taxes, then you have to allow them the same protections as any other business that may, or may not, be dealing in 'intangibles').

 

[Ron Party]

Can someone who knows Mark invite him to join ASR and, in particular, this thread? I think we all would benefit from his participation.

 

[restorer-john]

Can someone who knows Mark invite him to join ASR and, in particular, this thread?

He may be wishing to sit the next couple of plays on the side lines- after all, he has friendships at stake.

Cooler heads may prevail at some point and having cases of sour grapes spilling all over forums is a difficult mess to clean up.