• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

The Laptop Thread

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,243
Likes
9,376
I'm going to start off with a generality. Laptops are at least an order of magnitude harder to design, manufacture and select than desktop computers. Weight, power consumption, screen size, trackpad, keyboard, cooling, CPU, GPU and memory all present difficulties not present in desktop computers (except for all in one designs). Desktops allow for the easy upgrade of GPU's and memory. Laptop GPU's (there might be an exception) are not upgradable. Memory is sometimes upgradable.

My next generality is every Windows laptop I have owned for at least the last 7 years has a way of running hot and getting noisy. This happens even on relatively modest tasks like web surfing. Sometimes a fan utility will fix this, sometimes not. Maybe someone makes one which adapts automatically, but all of my experience is either there is a manual utility setting or nothing at all.

This next general observation about Windows laptops is something which was not so bad in the past, but I find it very annoying and have returned a Lenovo Legion 5 and a Dell Inspiron 16 in the last year because of it. Remember third party crapware? Trials of McAfee are still on most new laptops. However there is now third party stuff with telemetry. Dell has some program claimed to optimize network performance. Fortunately, it's easy to remove. Gaming laptops have Nehemic Audio. This is considered to be spyware by many. It's nearly impossible to remove. I attempted to remove it from the Legion 5 and it clobbered the audio stack to where Equalizer APO would no longer work. I did a reset which fixed the audio stack but when removing the McAfee trial I found Microsoft Defender had been disabled, so I returned the thing. Windows gaming computers carry a lot of manufacturer installed utilities some of which keep track of and report back on the games one plays. Their fan and power utilities are essential for optimum operation.

There is something worse than 3rd party crapware. That is manufacturer installed telemetry. On the Inspiron 16 which I briefly owned the services running had all kinds of sinister names like "Dell Data Vault" and telemetry this and that. These things are being marketed as utilities which optimize the user experience, but some comments I found elsewhere was employers could access data vault to see how the employee was using the machine. I'm sure all this info goes back to Dell although there is probably a way out for enterprise customers purchasing boatloads of Dell's. I tried to remove this stuff on the Inspiron but found it disabled the utility which controls the fan and some other useful items. Reinstallation did not work so I did a reset. Since the system image was done months earlier lots of stuff had to be updated. It turns out these days you may be stuck with your manufacturer updating utility because they are not putting everything on Windows Update anymore. The system did not update properly. Icons and links disappeared for essential utilities. I took it back. I will note here that out of the box it did not update without problems. In other words, you can do a clean install, but your machine will lack fan control and might not update properly. Maybe you can get a third party fan control working, maybe not. Do you really want to have to mess with on your brand new laptop.

Intel integrated GPU's are OK for office work and video playback. The Iris Xe (about to be replaced by a faster IGPU with an Arc designation) can output 8K video at 60 Hz. What the Iris can't do competently is any task which utilizes GPU acceleration. It performs abysmally compared to discreet GPU's or the IGPU in my MacBook Pro M3 Pro (11/14 cores). A Denoise operation in Lightroom took 6 minutes. The Mac did it in 45 seconds. An RTX 4080 with an uncapped 145 watt TDP is more than twice as fast at that operation, but will be packaged in a machine weighing around 9 pounds (4 kg) when the power supply is considered. I will note here that manufacturer specification only give the weight of the computer. The power supply is listed by wattage. As a rule of thumb laptop power supplies weigh 1 lb (454 gr) per 100 watts. The brick which comes with gaming and other high power drain laptops will also have a heavy duty power cord which can add even more weight.

More later...
 

sweetchaos

Major Contributor
The Curator
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Messages
3,920
Likes
12,123
Location
BC, Canada
I’m curious about this…

Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite is a mobile processor for laptops that was announced at the end of 2023. It is the first processor from Qualcomm to feature its custom Oryon CPU cores, which are designed to rival Apple's M-series and Intel's Core processors. The Snapdragon X Elite has 12 Oryon cores that can run up to 4.3 GHz and support on-device AI inferencing. It also has a powerful Adreno GPU and a Snapdragon X65 5G modem. Qualcomm claims that the Snapdragon X Elite offers up to 2 times faster CPU performance and 4.5 times faster AI processing power than its competitors, while consuming much less power and delivering longer battery life. PCs powered by Snapdragon X Elite are expected to be available from mid-2024¹². For more details, you can check out the Snapdragon X Elite webpage³ or the product brief⁴.

Source: Conversation with Bing, 1/17/2024
(1) Qualcomm Unleashes Snapdragon X Elite: The AI Super-Charged Platform to .... https://www.qualcomm.com/news/relea...snapdragon-x-elite--the-ai-super-charged-plat.
(2) We tested it: Here's how the Snapdragon X Elite compares to Apple .... https://www.xda-developers.com/snapdragon-x-elite-benchmarks/.
(3) Snapdragon X Elite Specs Leak Reveal Top-Tier PC SoC Sports 12 Oryon .... https://wccftech.com/qualcomm-snapdragon-x-elite-pc-soc-detailed-specifications-leak/.
(4) Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite Processor - Benchmarks and Specs. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Qualc...-Processor-Benchmarks-and-Specs.763556.0.html.
(5) Snapdragon X Elite is Qualcomm's latest ARM-based chipset for laptops. https://www.gsmarena.com/snapdragon...t_armbased_chipset_for_laptops-news-60346.php.
 

sweetchaos

Major Contributor
The Curator
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Messages
3,920
Likes
12,123
Location
BC, Canada
Remember third party crapware?
Yeah, that’s unfortunately the world we live in.
Windows from any of these manufacturers comes loaded with crapware.

I typically wipe the OS clean, upon receiving a laptop, and install a clean Windows 11 iso. I set the language to “English (world)”, which removes any 3rd party shortcuts on start menu (like Spotify, Sudoku, etc). This leaves only official Windows apps. A very clean install, in other words.

Then, I disable the Windows telemetry/privacy tracking by running ShutUp10++. Just run it and apply recommended settings. Then reboot pc.

Then I install the necessary drivers, such as network driver (Intel or Realtek) and audio drivers.

Then see what the vendor drivers are left over, from Dell or Lenovo, etc.
 

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
4,195
Likes
2,475
@sweetchaos seams interesting at 23W top tho would like to see some GPU benchmarks the old ATI whose always good at artimetry and by GF alone you could play games in 1080p. As usual much of the SoC is pretty useless to us regarding programing and use including ADSP (Hexagon in its current incarnation). ASIC's are probably a design win. Not interested from developers perspective.
 
OP
Ron Texas

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,243
Likes
9,376
Yeah, that’s unfortunately the world we live in.
Windows from any of these manufacturers comes loaded with crapware.

I typically wipe the OS clean, upon receiving a laptop, and install a clean Windows 11 iso. I set the language to “English (world)”, which removes any 3rd party shortcuts on start menu (like Spotify, Sudoku, etc). This leaves only official Windows apps. A very clean install, in other words.

Then, I disable the Windows telemetry/privacy tracking by running ShutUp10++. Just run it and apply recommended settings. Then reboot pc.

Then I install the necessary drivers, such as network driver (Intel or Realtek) and audio drivers.

Then see what the vendor drivers are left over, from Dell or Lenovo, etc.
Many do clean installs, but as I wrote above, Dell in particular, is making it difficult. You might be without fan control on a machine where it makes a big difference. I own an LG Gram 16 (12th gen Intel). It has very few of these manufacturer additions. Somehow there is a way to do anything. However, I want a clean (or nearly clean) install experience out of the box.
 
OP
Ron Texas

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,243
Likes
9,376
Above I have been hinting at why I went with a Mac. I use Adobe Lightroom Classic a lot. It likes both a fast CPU and has a lot of GPU accelerated functions. For the latest versions the Intel integrated GPU is worthless. The Mac Pro M3 Pro CPU benchmarks as fast as any laptop processor available. The GPU is about 8 times faster than the Iris Xe. It is not as fast as a 145 watt TDP RTX 40X0 but those come in heavy, noisy, hot running packages. As an aside, the Inspiron 16 I took back had an RTX 4060 with a 45 watt TDP. I was not impressed by its performance in Lightroom. The Mac runs quiet and cool under heavy loads. It gives a clean install experience right out of the box. Sure, what @sweetchaos does works, but I wanted to avoid all that work.

The Qualcomm hardware seems promising. We will just have to wait until it is available. I'm wondering if companies like Adobe will provide versions of their applications optimized for the Qualcomm processors.

I think the main drawback of the Mac is everything is just a bit different from Windows. It takes a while to get used to it. Some utilities I used which were free for Windows are paid in the OS X versions. I found substitutes, although initially it kind of stressed me out.
 

sweetchaos

Major Contributor
The Curator
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Messages
3,920
Likes
12,123
Location
BC, Canada
You might be without fan control on a machine where it makes a big difference.
Have you see the Github project called "Fan Control"?

Github Link

MainUI.png


JayzTwoCents did an overview in 2022 on this software here:

He says this software is miles ahead of all manufacturer's software related to fan control.
He says the software is amazing, and it's the most powerful software he's ever used.

I didn't test it.
 
OP
Ron Texas

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,243
Likes
9,376
Well many of the higher end gaming laptops can and there are ways to run external GPU's as well.


JSmith
Gaming laptops weigh 9 pounds, are bulky, run hot and noisy, have tons of crapware, keyboards with distracting lighting and are otherwise unsuitable for anything but gaming. An external GPU is not a solution for most people. Certainly not for anyone who needs portability. When I started this thread I expected all sorts of these exceptional items to come up. These things exist, but are useful only for a few.
 
OP
Ron Texas

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,243
Likes
9,376
Have you see the Github project called "Fan Control"?

Github Link

MainUI.png


JayzTwoCents did an overview in 2022 on this software here:

He says this software is miles ahead of all manufacturer's software related to fan control.
He says the software is amazing, and it's the most powerful software he's ever used.

I didn't test it, since I don't have a Windows laptop.
These things are available. That doesn't mean a non technical user can use them successfully. There is a workaround for everything if you know what you are doing and have the time. My view is a new laptop should not be a DIY project.

I don't understand something. Above you wrote about how todo a clean install on a Windows laptop, but now you say you don't have one. Maybe you run Linux. That's another solution for the highly technical user, but not for ordinary people. There is a big difference between what is possible for those with technical skills and time and what is probable for the rest of the population.
 

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
4,195
Likes
2,475
Have you see the Github project called "Fan Control"?

Github Link

MainUI.png


JayzTwoCents did an overview in 2022 on this software here:

He says this software is miles ahead of all manufacturer's software related to fan control.
He says the software is amazing, and it's the most powerful software he's ever used.

I didn't test it.
It works, there whose a bad update hire and there but fix whose in day or two.
 
OP
Ron Texas

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,243
Likes
9,376
It works, there whose a bad update hire and there but fix whose in day or two.
It looks complex to me. There are a lot of options for those with technical skills and time, but they are a tiny minority. It's not a solution for the masses, so to speak.
 

sweetchaos

Major Contributor
The Curator
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Messages
3,920
Likes
12,123
Location
BC, Canada
I don't understand something. Above you wrote about how todo a clean install on a Windows laptop, but now you say you don't have one. Maybe you run Linux.
That's because I use MacOS laptop and Windows desktop computer as my daily driver. I used to have Windows for a laptop, but no longer. I've wiped dozens of laptops for friends & family and reinstalled a clean Windows OS.

It's very simple.
1. Download ISO from Microsoft.com. Link
2. Download and run Rufus. Link
Which will create a bootable USB drive, without the limitation of "4gb of ram, certain CPU, and TPM 2.0" requirement that Microsoft added to restrict hardware from being compatible with Windows 11.
1705543713149.png
3. Once done, plug into laptop, restart the computer and make sure it boots into USB. If it doesnt, go into BIOS and manually overwrite the boot order to be the USB drive.
4. When Windows setup appears, make sure you set the "English (World)" for Time and Currency.
1705543836682.png
5. Now when windows starts, you'll have a clean menu (without the 3rd-party garbage, like Spotify or Sudoku shortcuts)
1705543874933.png
6. Then go to back to system settings, and make sure you change the languge back to 'English (US)" or "English (Canada)" or whatever.
7. That's it. You have a clean windows install.
8. Run ShutUp10++ (link) to disable Telemetry/tracking. Once running, click on Actions, "Apply Only Recommended Settings". When it asks to restart, do that.
9. Go to dell.com or lenovo.com and look up the model # of your laptop, and then download the drivers yourself.

Pretty simple. Nothing complicated about this.
 

elvisizer

Active Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
264
Likes
212
I had an AWFUL experience with an alienware m15 R3 a couple of years ago- the thing had to be undervolted to run at all, it would hit 100 degrees on the CPU during boot. I took it apart and re-pasted it and it was better until the paste dried out . . . .
got rid of it this year and got one of the Asus ROG strix scar17's with the ryzen 9 7945HX3D with the 3d vcache + 4090 GPU. much better cooling performance, I've been having a great time with it for the first month or so. Asus had some telemetry software (myAsus) but it was easy to remove. Armory crate you can replace with g helper, and the only other crapware they had installed was a mcafee trial that was also easy to remove.
only complaint is the battery life, for some reason this model just runs out super fast, all the reviews mentioned it. And the built in display (IPS, 2560x1440 244 hz, no HDR!) is only OK at best- it's not very bright, but at least the colors are accurate ish and there's minimal IPS backlight bleed on my model.
 

JSmith

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 8, 2021
Messages
5,224
Likes
13,478
Location
Algol Perseus
Gaming laptops weigh 9 pounds, are bulky

1.86kg (4.1 pounds)
21.7mm (0.85 inch)


JSmith
 
OP
Ron Texas

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,243
Likes
9,376
@sweetchaos for starters I would not mess with installing Win 11 on a machine that is not officially supported. My approach would be to stick with Win 10 and worry about the phase out next year. It's likely to be extended. I did a clean Win 11 install on my LG Gram. There was even a box to check to avoid when you are asked for a Microsoft account. On the Gram the drivers can't be downloaded individually but their update utility downloads what you need. Anything not essential is an optional download. It's doable. For the Dell Inspiron it's difficult to pick what is needed and what is not. You appear to be working with old hardware. The newer systems are more complex. Try getting a system with two GPU's to work right switching automatically between the Iris and Nvidia GPU's depending on power load. My point is, it's not doable by everyone. Nice to hear you are a Mac user. I had another Mac years ago. It was destroyed by a lightening strike in the neighborhood. I lost it along with a cable modem and a router. My neighbor lost a $9,000 refrigerator.
 
OP
Ron Texas

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,243
Likes
9,376

1.86kg (4.1 pounds)
21.7mm (0.85 inch)


JSmith
The 3050Ti in that system is power limited and is nowhere near the performance level of a 145 watt TDP RTX 40X0. I bet that 4.1 lb weight doesn't include the power supply which could easily weigh 1.5 lb or more. The quoted machine has an 11th gen processor, so it is no longer available. Do you have experience with that machine or did you do an internet search just to prove me wrong?
 

Chrispy

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
7,938
Likes
6,097
Location
PNW
Despite the crapware that comes on a typical pc laptop, which can largely be dealt with, altho anoying, I still find them more conducive to my purposes than either a desktop model or anything from Apple....but can appreciate frustrations with them :)
 
Top Bottom