phoenixsong
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Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
In my estimation, yes the Sundara is a worthy upgrade from the he400i 2020, it's somewhat of a benchmark in it's price range. It's a much better HP, EQ or not. I've owned Sundara and still own he400i 2020, along with Ananda and Arya. Only reason that I still own the he400i is bc it was cheap and I used it for a backup when I was waiting on my Arya.
Oh really, and what exactly makes it a "much better HP, EQ or not"? I've seen others opining similar sentiments, but when pressed all you get is the usual vague, amorphous audiophile-speak with nothing in the measurements to back this up, leading to the much more likely conclusion that subconscious cost bias is heavily at play.
While I understand that this may not be popular on this site, I'd like to point out that measurement charts are not the ultimate indicator of how something sounds. Measurements of a HP can give a very vague or rough estimate of how something may sound, but IRL it can sound totally different than the measurements would indicate, ex: Ananda review and owners' comments. We still have to listen to it. As an owner of both (and higher tiered cans), I made that comment from experience and I stand by it. He400i 2020 doesn't have the soundstage, imaging, mids/vocal clarity and realism, or bass quantity and bass quality of the Sundara and sounds quite different. Have you listened to both? If so, what is your impression of both when side by side?
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Have you heard both of them? EQ doesn't reproduce the exact same results with two differently designed HPs. While both are good, Sundara to me brings a little more to the table in it's natural, un-EQ'd state. EQ'd they may be a little closer but Sundara is still a more capable HP, EQ'd or not. More and better bass, more present and realistic mids, a less peaky treble, and an overall more complete HP. Once again I've heard and owned both. You?
Have you heard both of them EQed to the same target i.e. with Oratory's PEQ profiles I linked above? Oh and I'm glad to see you've toned down the hyperbole (don't audiophiles just love hyperbole) from 'the Sundara is much better' to 'it brings a little more to the table'. That's progress at least.
For one, not everyone likes Oratory's EQ, whatever his preference scores say.
Two, headphone measurements do not tell you nearly as much about how the products sound than measurements on electronics do.
From several post you make on this forum I conclude you don't understand that.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
There is no such thing as A HE400i and A Sundara.
There are different HE400i and Sundara produced over time with different tonal response also requiring EQ to be different depending on year of production (pads causing differences mostly).
Both are capable and good sounding HP's that increase in SQ with the proper EQ. One can debate what proper EQ is and if that applies in all cases to each and everyone.
Just enjoy your HE400i or Sundara or whatever headphone one prefers. All models differ in one place or another and not everyone values the same headphone's properties similarly.
There are different HE400i and Sundara produced over time with different tonal response also requiring EQ to be different depending on year of production (pads causing differences mostly).
Both are capable and good sounding HP's that increase in SQ with the proper EQ. One can debate what proper EQ is and if that applies in all cases to each and everyone.
Just enjoy your HE400i or Sundara or whatever headphone one prefers. All models differ in one place or another and not everyone values the same headphone's properties similarly.
For one, you've missed the point. I was asking if they still think the Sundara sound "much better" when they are EQed to the same target. Oratory's EQs to the Harman target are an easy way of doing this, but can still be adjusted to a different target to taste (Oratory even states this on his PDFs and now specifically curates his EQ filters for such easy intuitive adjustment). As long as both headphones are adjusted to the same target, I don't care what that target is for the purpose of this argument.
Two, Dr Sean Olive of Harman's research showed his predicted preference scores (which Oratory calculates on his PDFs) determined by frequency response measurements had an 86% accuracy with actual preference scores given in scientifically controlled, double-blind listening studies. Note this headphone preference score does not necessarily correspond to similarity in 'how the products sound' as you seem to think, a common mistake from people who haven't actually read the research. Would you care to show me some scientific research that shows a better (or even equal) correlation than 86% between SINAD/THD and electronics' sound preference? (Doubt it, because the correlation between THD and preference is actually poor, especially at the low distortion levels of the vast majority of electronics that aren't defective in design/implementation).
From your post here I conclude you don't understand any of this.
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We're talking about the 2020 revisions of both the Sundara and HE400i, and these HifiMan designs have both low unit variation (seen across Oratory, Crinacle and Resolve's measurements) and low listener head / positional variation (average of just 0.3 dB as measured by Rtings), so your usual equivocal, non-committal, conclusionless comment doesn't apply here, and is just muddying the waters.
Raindog123
Major Contributor
I think, to a degree the guys were trying to answer my earlier question: I currently own an HE400i (2020) and was wondering whether a Sundara (that I do not have) would be a noticeable improvement. So, appreciate all the opinions... Of course, I can bite the bullet and order one on Amazon -- to form the first-hand opinion, and return it "if the difference is [subjectively, personally] not worth it"...
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Buy it.
It's the only way to find out because opinions are just that.
Small differences in preference ratings based on an algorithm and a particular test device say little to nothing about what you or anyone else prefers.
Listen to both and sell or return the one you do not plan to use.
IMO they are side grades with just different strengths when not EQ'ed.
With proper EQ I don't believe both will differ that much.
In the end only you can determine which sounds better to you. Graphs, ratings won't tell you, nor can others, what headphone you prefer and why.
It's the only way to find out because opinions are just that.
Small differences in preference ratings based on an algorithm and a particular test device say little to nothing about what you or anyone else prefers.
Listen to both and sell or return the one you do not plan to use.
IMO they are side grades with just different strengths when not EQ'ed.
With proper EQ I don't believe both will differ that much.
In the end only you can determine which sounds better to you. Graphs, ratings won't tell you, nor can others, what headphone you prefer and why.
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
To me it hasn't.
A single FR plot and distortion plot and number generated by some algorithm can tell me something about tonal balance and if EQ can help.
It won't tell me if I am gonna like the headphone and if I like it that someone else will like it too nor how good a seal someone else can get or how the comfort and fit is. With speakers it won't tell me HOW a speaker sounds in my room either.
Acoustic measurements don't say the same things as electrical measurements. You can say they do but there is a personal element in there which is not shown in 2 or 3 plots.
A single FR plot and distortion plot and number generated by some algorithm can tell me something about tonal balance and if EQ can help.
It won't tell me if I am gonna like the headphone and if I like it that someone else will like it too nor how good a seal someone else can get or how the comfort and fit is. With speakers it won't tell me HOW a speaker sounds in my room either.
Acoustic measurements don't say the same things as electrical measurements. You can say they do but there is a personal element in there which is not shown in 2 or 3 plots.
You made me laugh! Thank you!
(I don't think I will gain anything by, nor enjoy engaging in a discussion like this one promises to be. Sorry I if I gave the impression that I did.)
I suppose you have a problem with my choice of words? "Better" is subjective in all things concerning HPs as far as the listening experience goes. I was responding to another post asking if Sundara is worth getting over he400i 2020. I would still say that Sundara is an all around more complete HP, EQ'd or not, subjectively speaking ofc.
No, seems like you're still not getting it. The problem is you claiming the Sundara is "much better" even with EQ, when it looks like you haven't actually EQed them to the same target, using industry standard frequency response measurements such as Oratory's.
Whew, what does it even matter. I stated what I thought when someone posed question. Oratory is one set of EQ targets that may not be everyone's flavor, such as myself. Have fun with your cans. No need for you to seek a better listening experience. Stay stuck. I'm out.
Nope, you're still not getting it. As I thought I made clear in this post, you don't have to use the Harman target which Oratory uses, just his accurate industry standard measurements to EQ the two headphones to the same target (any target). Here's the relevant part of that post, please read it more carefully this time (now emboldened for your ease of understanding):
Until you do this, you cannot claim that the Sundara is better "EQ'd or not". Unlike other audiophile forums where hyperbolic anectodal claims are thrown around and lapped up without a moment's thought, on this forum, truth matters, and you will be challenged if you make invalid claims like you have done here.
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