Roger Sanders' views on audio: The discussion thread

[DonH56]

Generally the room can emphasize certain frequencies but does not add nonlinearity (distortion).

 

[Burning Sounds]

I don't see how the room would add harmonics. (I get to be wrong)

Exception: Something physical in the room resonating with the fundamental and creating its own set of harmonics. I figure that is rather unlikely.

Generally the room can emphasize certain frequencies but does not add nonlinearity (distortion).

Thanks for putting me straight on that guys. Taking measurements is relatively easy - interpreting them correctly is another thing! So am I right in thinking that if I measure at 87db 1 meter from the speaker I should get a similar result as I did at the listening position?

 

[RayDunzl]

Taking measurements is relatively easy - interpreting them correctly is another thing! So am I right in thinking that if I measure at 87db 1 meter from the speaker I should get a similar result as I did at the listening position?

The levels will be a little lower, and there will be more contribution to the variations in frequency response by the reflections in the room.

I usually do all measurements from where I listen, because, well, that's where I listen (at least, where I listen critically).

Much more time is spent here in the right rear corner at the PC, facing away from the speakers, casually listening. No imaging, to speak of, and a little bass boost from the corner.

My Audio buddy is coming over tonight, so we'll be inhabiting the couch.

 

[Burning Sounds]

Hope you had a good listening session. My regular audio buddy is our family, furry four-legged friend. He is supposed to have a place on the end of the couch, but when I get up from the sweet spot he has a tendency to shuffle over and nab it. Of course he probably has better hearing than me anyway - at least in the high frequencies.

Thought I'd measure my 30 year old Magneplanar 2.5Rs today.

 

[RayDunzl]

Thought I'd measure my 30 year old Magneplanar 2.5Rs today.

Let's see some pink noise...

 

[Burning Sounds]

Let's see some pink noise...

Hope this what you mean...LX521 pink noise (using JRiver and Acourate)

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Arrived late to this thread but I can give the (subjective) opinion of someone who has owned a full Sanders System: 2 x magtech amps, sanders preamp and 10c hybrid electrostat

I loved them. But I sold them.
Why? Well, in the sweet-spot they are astoundingly good. Pin point imaging, coherent (the digital crossover time-aligns the panels and the transmission-line bass units. It sounds like a single speaker ... every other hybrid electrostat I’ve heard sounds to me like there are two different speakers in the room).
And well balanced tonally. And able to go stupidly loud with dynamics equal to or better than many “box speakers”.

In short, one of the best systems I’ve heard. Period.

One problem. Music is a shared thing for me. I love listening with my family, sharing tunes with my kids. Listening with friends.
So my main system is in my living room - a shared space.
And out of the sweet-spot, the magic isn’t there.

So I decided I needed a less “selfish” system.

 

[Bjorn]

They are highly directional and beam, so that makes sense. For a speaker to sound good at many places in a room the horizontal directivity needs to be wider.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Roger Sanders makes no apologies for the fact that they beam. He designed them to behave that way (or rather he deliberately didn’t try to widen their dispersion as say, Martin Logan does).
His view is that beaming is a good thing.

When you are in the sweet spot, it makes sense

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I have never heard any of his systems. The design goal does make sense IMO. I wonder however how smal (or wide) is the sweet spot?

 

[svart-hvitt]

Hi

I have never heard any of his systems. The design goal does make sense IMO. I wonder however how smal (or wide) is the sweet spot?

Check this:

https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/Publications/Tylka_AES139_3D3ADirectivity.pdf

And this:

https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/Directivity.html

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Hi

I have never heard any of his systems. The design goal does make sense IMO. I wonder however how smal (or wide) is the sweet spot?

It's not quite "head in a clamp" narrow, but it's certainly limited to one person.

 

[Bjorn]

Hi

I have never heard any of his systems. The design goal does make sense IMO. I wonder however how smal (or wide) is the sweet spot?

That can be seen in my previous post:
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-the-discussion-thread.2615/page-4#post-74710

The dispersion becomes gradually narrower. Meaning the reflective energy will have different spectral content than the direct signal. At 500 Hz the directivity is around 100°. At 2000 Hz it's down to 40°, at 5000 Hz 20°, at 10KHz and above it's extremely narrow.

If it was narrow and constant (up to a certain frequency), that would have been fine for a speaker where the goal is to hear mainly direct sound. But the gradual narrowing starting so early in frequency is a definite weakness.

 

[Dialectic]

Check this:

https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/Publications/Tylka_AES139_3D3ADirectivity.pdf

And this:

https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/Directivity.html

I've heard the Sanders speakers (paired with the Sanders amplifiers) with and without BACCH. Without BACCH, they sounded tonally thin to me, with a tiny sweet spot; I didn't like them at all.

The Sanders speakers with BACCH are the best system I have ever heard, bar none.

 

[egellings]

'Stats are largely a capacitive load and are hard to drive. They need an amp that can tolerate that.

 

[Jazzman53]

I’ve not heard Sanders’ speakers, but I’ve built similar ESL’s and I have a pretty good idea of how they sound. I even used Sanders’ book to build my first pair in 2008, and I mostly agree with his assertions.

Anyone who hasn’t sat at the focus of a beaming flat-panel ESL can’t even imagine how ultra-directional they really are—the imaging is truly magical, but that comes at a price. As one moves even a foot outside the focus; the magical imaging fades away and the highs fall off dramatically. Some call this the “head-in-a-vice” effect, and it’s very real. Although, as one moves quite far outside the focus, where reflected sounds become louder, frequencies again trend toward balance.

A well executed ESL will have a level of clarity and coherence that conventional speakers just cannot match, in my experience. This results not only from the miniscule mass of the diaphragm relative to the coupled air mass, but I believe also to the huge surface area coupling to the room.

Fortunately; the historical limitations on dispersion, dynamics, and reliability have been largely overcome in recent years, and ESLs are now more viable for hi-fi than ever before.

Some prefer ultra-directional panels, and I loved them too, but I found myself wishing for a wider sweet spot when company dropped in.

My latest flat panel ESL’s (shown below) use symmetrically segmented wire stators that bend the wave-front electronically, using (15) stepped-frequency/stepped-phased 6-wire arrays driving the diaphragm from the centerline outward, to give smoother trending dispersion than a curved panel, or even most conventional speakers for that matter. They do trade off some of the magical imaging of a flat panel for wider dispersion with no head-in-a vice effect.

OK… count me as an advocate for ESLs, and I’m surely biased because I build them, but I can’t imagine anyone not being floored by their spooky-real sound. Even after all these years; I’m still amazed.

And I credit Roger Sanders for blazing a trail for DIY ESL builders.

 

[Wes]

"While tweeters don't have to move that much air, so the problem is smaller."

Yet tweeters also have to respond to HF so one problem is greater.

Everybody and his uncle (or her aunt) tries to make drivers with light wt. cones, less moving mass.

 

[watchnerd]

I’ve not heard Sanders’ speakers, but I’ve built similar ESL’s and I have a pretty good idea of how they sound. I even used Sanders’ book to build my first pair in 2008, and I mostly agree with his assertions.

Anyone who hasn’t sat at the focus of a beaming flat-panel ESL can’t even imagine how ultra-directional they really are—the imaging is truly magical, but that comes at a price. As one moves even a foot outside the focus; the magical imaging fades away and the highs fall off dramatically. Some call this the “head-in-a-vice” effect, and it’s very real. Although, as one moves quite far outside the focus, where reflected sounds become louder, frequencies again trend toward balance.

A well executed ESL will have a level of clarity and coherence that conventional speakers just cannot match, in my experience. This results not only from the miniscule mass of the diaphragm relative to the coupled air mass, but I believe also to the huge surface area coupling to the room.

Fortunately; the historical limitations on dispersion, dynamics, and reliability have been largely overcome in recent years, and ESLs are now more viable for hi-fi than ever before.

Some prefer ultra-directional panels, and I loved them too, but I found myself wishing for a wider sweet spot when company dropped in.

My latest flat panel ESL’s (shown below) use symmetrically segmented wire stators that bend the wave-front electronically, using (15) stepped-frequency/stepped-phased 6-wire arrays driving the diaphragm from the centerline outward, to give smoother trending dispersion than a curved panel, or even most conventional speakers for that matter. They do trade off some of the magical imaging of a flat panel for wider dispersion with no head-in-a vice effect.

OK… count me as an advocate for ESLs, and I’m surely biased because I build them, but I can’t imagine anyone not being floored by their spooky-real sound. Even after all these years; I’m still amazed.

And I credit Roger Sanders for blazing a trail for DIY ESL builders.

View attachment 66955

I used various Martin Logan speakers for over 10 years before switching back to direct radiator speakers.

They were amazing from the midrange up.

But I could never get bombastic classical warhorses like Dvoarak's 9th to have the somatic impact in the upper bass / lower midrange 'power zone' that I liked.

I think there is something different in how they pressurize rooms.

 

[egellings]

Do curved 'statics, like Martin Logan's offerings, work well in eliminating the 'head in a vice' requirement of flat panel designs? Do other problems arise using that approach?

 

[watchnerd]

Do curved 'statics, like Martin Logan's offerings, work well in eliminating the 'head in a vice' requirement of flat panel designs? Do other problems arise using that approach?

It helps, but it's not entirely gone.

Quad used concentric delayed rings to address it. Again, it helps, but it doesn't negate it entirely.