Denafrips ARES II USB R2R DAC Review

[Rottmannash]

I really don't know the answer, but is the suggestion that my listening fatigue, and very physical headaches that resulted from the D50 + JBL l7 was purely psychological? Even when I had subjectively positive experiences up until that point using the D50 with another pair of speakers? The headaches are what prompted me to purchase a new DAC. Any subjective bias I had of the D50 was positive prior to getting the new speakers. So what is it exactly that I am hearing that is giving me listening fatigue if differences are inaudible/barely audible?

Perhaps you're sensitive to high frequencies. Aren't the JBL's horn drivers?

 

[gvl]

@mistermuddles, sharing your experiences is fine but is of limited value to other people as most will not have the Ares or even if they do their experiences may not match yours. This forum can offer you guidance on how to critically analyze your experience and improve it but doing it is on you. If you're not willing or not in a position to follow through then it's pointless to continue this discussion, just find your comfort zone by trial and error and enjoy it.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

@mistermuddles, sharing your experiences is fine but is of limited value to other people as most will not have the Ares or even if they do their experiences may not match yours. This forum can offer you guidance on how to critically analyze your experience and improve it but doing it is on you. If you're not willing or not in a position to follow through then it's pointless to continue this discussion, just find your comfort zone by trial and error and enjoy it.

I'm not really making any attempts to continue this discussion outside of responding to what others have posted in response to my initial shared experience which you yourself said was fine.

I'm not arguing anything.

My intention was just to share my anecdotal experience with a newly purchased product. Others can take what they want from it.

It's perfectly fine to disregard and ignore what I said or disagree politely with your own opinions and arguments, but that's not exactly what happened.

 

[gvl]

I'm not really making any attempts to continue this discussion outside of responding to what others have posted in response to my initial shared experience which you yourself said was fine.

I'm not arguing anything.

My intention was just to share my anecdotal experience with a newly purchased product. Others can take what they want from it.

It's perfectly fine to disregard and ignore what I said or disagree politely with your own opinions and arguments, but that's not exactly what happened.

It sounded like you were looking for answers, if this was a one directional flow then I tend to think it was a waste of your and everyone else's time.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

It sounded like you were looking for answers, if this was a one directional flow then I tend to think it was a waste of your and everyone else's time.

Sure, in response to what others had said I was seeking answers/clarification, but that was all after the fact.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

I think the thing that I want to learn more about or understand better, after spending a little bit of time here, is why placebo is okay for this but not for that kind of mentality. There seems to be a level of arrogance and superiority here that strikes me. It's as if everything has already been answered and there is no more room for learning or understanding past the point of the data that currently exists and is obtainable/measurable.

For people who know nothing about science, electronics theory, measurements, testing, etc -- such as myself -- how is the placebo effect any different? It would require a level of belief for me to buy into what is taught here, as I have no way of verifying any of it for myself, and me trusting the measurements/data which I don't really understand well enough to be confident in, seems like it would result in the same placebo effects that people gain when buying into and believing in the marketing, aesthetics, and subjective listening impressions of others?

If the end result is the same in both cases what difference does it really matter how it is achieved? It all feels rather dogmatic.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Perhaps you're sensitive to high frequencies. Aren't the JBL's horn drivers?

Titanium dome tweeters. Yes, they can be harsh depending on a lot of different factors and yes I may very well be sensitive to certain frequencies .

 

[gvl]

I think the thing that I want to learn more about or understand better, after spending a little bit of time here, is why placebo is okay for this but not for that kind of mentality. There seems to be a level of arrogance and superiority here that strikes me. It's as if everything has already been answered and there is no more room for learning or understanding past the point of the data that currently exists and is obtainable/measurable.

For people who know nothing about science, electronics theory, measurements, testing, etc -- such as myself -- how is the placebo effect any different? It would require a level of belief for me to buy into what is taught here, as I have no way of verifying any of it for myself, and me trusting the measurements/data which I don't really understand well enough to be confident in, seems like it would result in the same placebo effects that people gain when buying into and believing in the marketing, aesthetics, and subjective listening impressions of others?

If the end result is the same in both cases what difference does it really matter how it is achieved? It all feels rather dogmatic.

A basic level-matched test will confirm if this is a placebo or not. No special electronics theory knowledge is required. People come here and make a bunch of statements but refuse to use simple controls to back them up, same as they do on other forums. There is, thankfully, increased sensitivity to that here that prevents morphing of this forum to another head-fi or the like resource where gobs of BS is flowing. It may come across offensive, and sometimes it is, but overall it is all good, those who want to learn stick around, and those who don't care retreat to places where they can continue their endless pointless discussions about DAC sound signatures and capacitor upgrades.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

A basic level-matched test will confirm if this is a placebo or not. No special electronics theory knowledge is required. People come here and make a bunch of statements but refuse to use simple controls to back them up, same as they do on other forums. There is, thankfully, increased sensitivity to that here that prevents morphing of this forum to another head-fi or the like resource where gobs of BS is flowing. It may come across offensive, and sometimes it is, but overall it is all good, those who want to learn stick around, and those who don't care retreat to places where they can continue their endless pointless discussions about DAC sound signatures and capacitor upgrades.

You didn't really address my questions. Why is the placebo effect of buying into one method/approach better or worse?

 

[Deleted member 31910]

A basic level-matched test will confirm if this is a placebo or not. No special electronics theory knowledge is required.

What exactly do I need to perform this? Does it require purchasing extra gear or components? Can I do it on my own or do I need to find someone to help? Sighted or unsighted doesn't matter?

 

[gvl]

What exactly do I need to perform this? Does it require purchasing extra gear or components? Can I do it on my own or do I need to find someone to help? Sighted or unsighted doesn't matter?

You'll need a basic A/B audio switch, if your amp has an input selector that'll do. You will need to find a way to split the digital signal into the 2 DACs, it's easier to do if you use a PC as a source, but you can get an SPDIF splitter too if you want to use your CD player. To level-match you will need a multimeter and a 300-400Hz digital test signal, there are tools to generate one online, you will need to burn an audio CD to play it if you must use your CD player for test. And yes, you will need a helper, as if you do it yourself you will know what DAC is playing which will introduce bias. You will need to come up with a protocol to minimize the chances of you indirectly inferring of what input is playing. Then just play the tracks you're most familiar with at random input selection, and both take notes and finally compare how many times you recognized right. Do more than 10 attempts to improve statistical significance of the results. You need to get at least 80% right to be able to say the difference is not placebo, anything less then it is no better than a random guess. There may be a more scientific method, but something like this should do for starters.

Instead of splitting the input you can have your helper just connect/disconnect cables before the track starts. But level-matching DACs is a must.

 

[gvl]

You didn't really address my questions. Why is the placebo effect of buying into one method/approach better or worse?

If you can confirm something through a controlled experiment then it is very probably not placebo.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

You'll need a basic A/B audio switch, if your amp has an input selector that'll do. You will need to find a way to split the digital signal into the 2 DACs, it's easier to do if you use a PC as a source, but you can get an SPDIF splitter too if you want to use your CD player. To level-match you will need a multimeter and a 300-400Hz digital test signal, there are tools to generate one online, you will need to burn an audio CD to play it if you must use your CD player for test. And yes, you will need a helper, as if you do it yourself you will know what DAC is playing which will introduce bias. You will need to come up with a protocol to minimize the chances of you indirectly inferring of what input is playing. Then just play the tracks you're most familiar with at random input selection, and both take notes and finally compare how many times you recognized right. Do more than 10 attempts to improve statistical significance of the results. You need to get at least 80% right to be able to say the difference is not placebo, anything less then it is no better than a random guess. There may be a more scientific method, but something like this should do for starters.

So in other words, not very accessible for average people who just enjoy music, collect music, and want their systems to sound as good as possible within their budget? I understand the benefit and merit of doing this and might be open to trying it someday but its not really feasible without purchasing extra products and enlisting/training someone to help you. I personally don't have any friends who are into audio. I could potentially instruct my girlfriend on how to do all this but it would take time... not everyone has time to do all this stuff and they might prefer just to listen to music instead of perform tests using tones and signals.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

If you can confirm something through a controlled experiment then it is very probably not placebo.

I was asking why the placebo effect of believing in one thing versus another thing is better or worse.

 

[gvl]

I was asking why the placebo effect of believing in one thing versus another thing is better or worse.

Before we dive too deep into philosophical questions, perhaps we can determine if there is actually a real difference between your DACs?

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Before we dive too deep into philosophical questions, perhaps we can determine if there is actually a real difference between your DACs?

If you want to come over to my place and bring the required equipment and run the blind test for me, sure! Let's do it!

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Whether there is a difference between the dacs is not the important factor, it's what I believe that matters most in affecting the result and outcome. Whether I believe in measurements or whether I believe in magic, doesn't not seem to matter as far as I can tell.. so why is one better than the other if they achieve the same result in the end?

 

[gvl]

If you want to come over to my place and bring the required equipment and run the blind test for me, sure! Let's do it!

What equipment? You can't get a multimeter off Amazon for $25? That's all you really need.

Whether there is a difference between the dacs is not the important factor, it's what I believe that matters most in affecting the result and outcome. Whether I believe in measurements or whether I believe in magic, doesn't not seem to matter as far as I can tell.. so why is one better than the other if they achieve the same result in the end?

Measurements can be correlated to what you hear, magic cannot be correlated to anything, if it could be it wouldn't be magic, would it?

 

[Deleted member 31910]

I'm not sure what you mean by magic can't be correlated to anything.. I mean, maybe I could have chosen a different word to communicate my thought better... but, in the instance of say, believing in Voodoo or witchcraft, you don't think those strong beliefs can be correlated to real world events? Western science may not be able to make the correlation but that doesn't matter a single bit to those being afflicted by dark magic.

What about sham surgery? There have been experiments where people have undergone sham surgery, having believed surgery was performed when it hasn't, and because of this belief and the power of placebo, their symptoms disappeared. Lots of things we still don't understand and science can't explain it all.

 

[pkane]

Whether there is a difference between the dacs is not the important factor, it's what I believe that matters most in affecting the result and outcome. Whether I believe in measurements or whether I believe in magic, doesn't not seem to matter as far as I can tell.. so why is one better than the other if they achieve the same result in the end?

If you think that science and magic are equivalent belief systems, you’ve come to the wrong place. And likely to the wrong century.