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You guys are sure a welcoming bunch, aren't you?
I was doing my best to share my experience. That is all.
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Denafrips ARES II USB R2R DAC Review
- Thread starter amirm
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I was doing my best to share my experience. That is all.
Google is your friend.
That is partially true, by the way. You're qualifying yourself as not expert enough to go deep into technical. Yet, you are questioning psychoacoustics (and bias) which are some very strongly established science.
Still, you don't believe yourself to be an expert (while not even close) so this is "partial" DK effect, I would say.
Come on... If you know the forum, you know that we saw hundreds of first posts like this one before. Then you should know how folks here should react. So, long story short: unless you've done proper controlled listening, no one on ASR is interested by DAC listening impressions. That's about it.
Welcome aboard!
D
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I get it, I just don't think it's very welcoming. I'm clearly new here. I tried to go out of my way to preface my comments by stating my own inability to technically articulate what I was hearing and you decided to in turn go out of your way to mock me for it.
I said that I have no idea what is actually happening other than it sounds better to me. I wasn't making any claims aside from reduced listening fatigue with my speakers. Anything outside of that I agreed was my subjective perception. The only thing I questioned was whether it can all be chalked up to psycho acoustics... maybe it can be... I have no idea. Doesn't change my experience.
I said that I have no idea what is actually happening other than it sounds better to me. I wasn't making any claims aside from reduced listening fatigue with my speakers. Anything outside of that I agreed was my subjective perception. The only thing I questioned was whether it can all be chalked up to psycho acoustics... maybe it can be... I have no idea. Doesn't change my experience.
KSTR
Major Contributor
How dare you speak in lieu of the whole membership?
All data points have value, some more than others.
Notably for that DAC under discussion here I can also state I heard a difference... with basic controls, of course, though not a full-blown DBT.
The interesting thing is that an RME ADI-2 Pro could capture the sound and was fully transparent when inserted as AD-->DA after the Ares and retained its special character, whereas when using the RME in place as main DAC the magic was lost. Which tells us something both about the RME and Denafrips.
KSTR
Major Contributor
You need kind of a thick skin when participating here but it will pay off. The biggest thing to learn really is how to do proper blind testing, that takes a lot of effort and has a step learning curve. It will reward you with increased certainity of what matters to you and what doesn't, in terms of signal reproduction proper. And believe me, a lot of things can actually heard in DBT's, there will be surprises.
Sadly, this forum continues to morph into a less tolerant space than it should be and there are a quite a few back-seat drivers with little knowledge and experience who are very quick to dismiss any non-conformant input, the "DBT or it didn't happen" Mafia, or "show me a rigorous scientific study that proves your claim, otherwise it is BS", etc.
Mind you, we still have people here who deny the audibility of phase or absolute polarity, both of which is quickly demonstrated to be relevant in a proper DBT (read: not your quick&dirty 30seconds ABX).
I didn't, unless "long story short" has a different meaning to you.
As long as you like it, there isn’t an issue, its measurements are pretty decent for an R2R dac, there may be enough added distortion to be audible, one could only really determine if the two dacs sound different with an unsighted, level matched comparison, which is bit of a faff.
Speakers and room will bring far greater gains in SQ than hanging dacs imho.
Keith
Speakers and room will bring far greater gains in SQ than hanging dacs imho.
Keith
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I really don't know the answer, but is the suggestion that my listening fatigue, and very physical headaches that resulted from the D50 + JBL l7 was purely psychological? Even when I had subjectively positive experiences up until that point using the D50 with another pair of speakers? The headaches are what prompted me to purchase a new DAC. Any subjective bias I had of the D50 was positive prior to getting the new speakers. So what is it exactly that I am hearing that is giving me listening fatigue if differences are inaudible/barely audible?
Veri
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"Fatigue" is such a variable though, on what does it depend? I can have fatiguing listening sessions on the same set-up I use day in day out. If I go out that day and buy a new DAC, will the new purchase have somehow "fixed" the fatigue? I'd doubt it.
If you look at it objectively, unless there's something seriously broken there should be no such obvious/drastic difference.
D
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I understand, I mean, I know I get fatigue easier and faster when I don't get good or enough sleep. I guess what I was specifically talking about when I said fatigue was headaches. Anecdotally/subjectively, I don't think this explains it for me though as I have no issues with headaches with the D50 on good/bad days with other speakers I own... but the pairing with other speakers does cause headaches 100% of the time during the time I was experimenting with the combo... switching to an older, less detailed, and in my subjective opinion "darker" dac in my Sony DVP-S9000ES solved the problem I was having, as did playing SACDs on the unit...so I sought to buy a different DAC and settled on the Ares II. I don't get headaches now unless I turn the volume up pretty high and even when listening at loud volumes it takes while... I can listen at normal listening levels for as long as I like with no headaches. I just have a hard time accepting that this is purely a result of psychology when I had no negative bias against the D50 and only had positive feelings toward it prior to getting the new speakers.
Look, this forum is about consumer awareness and evidence driven purchase.
it's completely okay to share and have your own personal experience, and no one should stop you from expressing it or tell you that your own experience is invalid.
However, instead of saying Topping D50 is better or worse, use words like the D50 sounded better to me. because obviously what sounds good to you might be a completely different experience for someone else.
however when you use terms like IS WORSE or IS BETTER without evidence then you're saying your own subjective experience is enough evidence to judge the product. and then you will have negative reactions.
D
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Did you even read my initial post? It doesn't sound like it. I don't even know how to respond to this.
I think you should hang around a little more and learn from some of the more technical posters here, on ASR. There are many explanations possible for what you're feeling or hearing, including your amp, speakers, room or even the recordings you're listening to. There are ways to find out what you're hearing and why. The DAC is unlikely to be the cause, but it could be, and it can also be broken or mismatched with your other components. Rather than guessing, you could learn how to find such faults systematically. But if you're happy with your new DAC, then simply enjoy and don't worry what anybody thinks of your choice
D
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I would definitely appreciate learning things that will further my understanding of audio and contribute to better system building. What I've assumed all along is that it was just a case of bad synergy between the JBL L7 and the D50, but I had more interest in making the L7 work than making the D50 work for obvious reasons. I think the synergy between the D50 and my other speakers are very nice!I think you should hang around a little more and learn from some of the more technical posters here, on ASR. There are many explanations possible for what you're feeling or hearing, including your amp, speakers, room or even the recordings you're listening to. There are ways to find out what you're hearing and why. The DAC is unlikely to be the cause, but it could be, and it can also be broken or mismatched with your other components. Rather than guessing, you could learn how to find such faults systematically. But if you're happy with your new DAC, then simply enjoy and don't worry what anybody thinks of your choice
KSTR
Major Contributor
This is nit-picking, I'd say. I think it is very obvious what is fact (very very little) and what is opinion (the bulk remainder). Anything that doesn't come with a packed list of established facts is opinion.
Btw, you mentioned something very important. Despite of its title, this forum has absolutely nothing to do with audio science, audio science is neither reviewed nor generated (with the very occasional exception, mabye). It's a gear review/ranking site with the nice aspect that the review and ranking is mostly based around engineering facts, as obtained by standard (and mostly reproducible) measurements. To me, even though the SINAD ranking makes zero sense and price/performance ratio does make even less sense this all is still far better than the audiophile blurb we know from other review sites.
......Come on... If you know the forum, you know that we saw hundreds of first posts like this one before. Then you should know how folks here should react. So, long story short: unless you've done proper controlled listening, no one on ASR is interested by DAC listening impressions. That's about it.
Welcome aboard!
I've said it before but I really think this should be reworded because it sounds too friendly and lighthearted. People tend to post before they read enough threads to really get a feel for the site.
"WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details. "
I get that it specifies "our interest" "knowledge of science" "be teased" "not take online life too seriously" but the replies are often not lighthearted teasing.
Perhaps:
"WANTED: Happy members who want to discuss and learn about the technical performance of audio equipment. Be warned, we have no interest or patience for subjective opinions when it comes to audio electronics. Objective measurements and double blind testing are the focus here, with a side of fun. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details. "
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There is quite a tendency for people to not only disagree with someone's opinion but also think the person is wrong for having that opinion. I don't know if it is a more recent thing or it is just highlighted more as the internet separates more and more into groups of like thinking.
I've seen it several times on here. Instead of "I'm not a fan of any sort of distortion and harmonics are distortion so I wouldn't buy that" we get "that has harmonics, harmonics are a form of distortion and so they are bad, nobody should want to listen to anything with harmonics, it shouldn't be manufactured because of that" It generally then proceeds to "someone would have to be stupid to buy it"
In all fairness I see it on all sorts of forums "If I don't like this, then there is no reason for it to exist" has replaced "that isn't for me" or what could, on here, be "that isn't for me and this site is about the measurement not the feeling of equipment"
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@mistermuddles, I think that the issue becomes problematic when you use terms such as "fatigue" or "headaches" associated with a particular DAC compared to others. If you asked the question "Is it possible that..." instead of stating your experience as a fact, maybe people would have been more tolerant.
In medicine, in particular, double blind studies are essential because some of these terms, like fatigue, tiredness and headache are incredibly unspecific and common. Almost every placebo arm in these studies has these terms as the most common side effects. Active too, but the fact that it happens with placebo tells you how much of this is psychological.
Think about your experience again. Try to separate yourself and think if it is possible at all that it is all in your mind. Right now, you are your own defense lawyer. But think of it as becoming an observer of your experience. Would these reports appear realistic to you?
In medicine, in particular, double blind studies are essential because some of these terms, like fatigue, tiredness and headache are incredibly unspecific and common. Almost every placebo arm in these studies has these terms as the most common side effects. Active too, but the fact that it happens with placebo tells you how much of this is psychological.
Think about your experience again. Try to separate yourself and think if it is possible at all that it is all in your mind. Right now, you are your own defense lawyer. But think of it as becoming an observer of your experience. Would these reports appear realistic to you?
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Unless I have misunderstood , I am more interested in why you were happy with the DAC for a few years, changed speakers and then get fatigue/ headaches from the same DAC?
Logically, arent the speakers (or how you, the rest of the system, the room and speakers interact) likely to be the issue? If indeed the fatigue/ headache are caused by the listening which I think is what others have taken issue with.
D
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When I got the JBL L7 at first I was mostly listening to SACDs. It sounded wonderful to me. In an effort to move away from SACD and improve my redbook playback, I moved the D50 from another system and paired it with my L7. It was at that time that I noticed the change in sound which in my subjective opinion caused headaches after a short listening period compared to SACDs. I found the sound to be extremely detailed and "good" but I couldn't get around the headache issue even after multiple attempts on different days with significant adjustments to the volume. Because I have many more redbook cds than SACDs I reverted to using the internal DAC inside my DVP. The headaches went away almost immediately. Sure, this could all just be in my head. To my ears, and in my subjective opinion, the DVP was less detailed, darker, and not as transparent.. I still wanted the micro details and clarity that the D50 offered, so I sought to find a new DAC which led me to the Ares II. Yes, it's quite possible that the listening impressions and reviews of other users had greatly influenced my reception of the Ares II. I'm just happy that my headaches are gone and now I have 2 DACs that I can work with using different speakers to find the right synergy between components.
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