Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[RichB]

For me the problem with anybody giving listening impressions of a speaker is familiarity.
I am pretty sure we prefer what we are used to, and that is why talk of "break-in" is probably about somebody accustoming themselves to the difference between something new and what they are used to. This will take days or weeks not hours.
I would not expect Amir to like anything which deviates much from the Revel speakers he uses himself, whether they are a very good reference point or not (Harman data implies they should be).
That is why I think listening opinions about speakers are of limited value - just look at the magazine reviewers and how close to their favourites a review speaker is. There is plenty of praise for speakers with quite uneven FR and if you check out the reviewer's system the speakers he usually uses at home are uneven in a similar way.
Until I realised this I found subjective speaker reviews perplexing, now I just find them pointless

I agree but there are reviewers that I read and respect. There can be a lot of data in a review when you can't experience a product in person. Size, weight style etc.

When I reviewed the ATI AT522NC (Hypex NCore) and ATI AT4002 with comparable power output, I felt the Hypex amp sources hair brighter and a bit more dynamic. Preferences shifted with source material but was a bit more "at home" with the AT4002 clIass A/B amp. I can not help but wonder if familiarity with class A/B amps had an influence. I am fairly certain that other, perhaps the majority, of friends and family would prefer the AT522NC driving the Revel M20s. I expected these amps to be nearly indistiquishable and was surprised when they were not. They were level matched with a voltmeter but it did take 30 seconds to switch. A friend with very good hearing and I did a quick SBT and he identified the differences.

I have Revel M20s and a C20 in a family vacation home currently driven by a 20+ year old Sunfire Cinema amp. It has completed its tour of duty. It will be replaced with an ATI AT525NC because it runs cool, has good build quality, should be reliable and I know that it will be a great amplifier for this system.

- Rich

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

Being an objectivist (if we really need to draw a line there) doesn't imply that I'm by no mean immune to cognitive/perception/expectation bias.

Doesn't it?

 

[ahofer]

Doesn't it?

No! Ask Danny Kahneman:

It’s false to hope that if you become more aware of your errors you will make better decisions, says Danny. There has been no breakthrough on efforts to reduce bias. Furthermore, all the work on biases has distracted from noise, which we know we can reduce. Kahneman’s recent research on noise has caused him to question the work he’s done over the years and consider the value of focusing instead on noise.

It takes method/process to eliminate bias, not education or some innate personality trait. That's why experimental protocols exist.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Big problem with many people here is that when I said I heard a difference and want to find out more with measurements, I was met with mostly negative and dismissive responses.

Paraphrase of many responses:

"You don't know how to measure, just give up and enjoy the music."

"It is all in your head!"

"You are a troll"

"You can't hear small differences in music"

Fortunately a few here are patience and willing to teach.....

 

[Jimbob54]

Big problem with many people here is that when I said I heard a difference and want to find out more with measurements, I was met with mostly negative and dismissive responses.

Paraphrase of many responses:

"You don't know how to measure, just give up and enjoy the music."

"It is all in your head!"

"You are a troll"

"You can't hear small differences in music"

Fortunately a few here are patience and willing to teach.....

But what was the conclusion all said and done?

 

[oursmagenta]

Doesn't it?

What do you mean?

 

[HiFidFan]

Along with car analogies, ...

 

[oursmagenta]

Big problem with many people here is that when I said I heard a difference and want to find out more with measurements, I was met with mostly negative and dismissive responses.

Paraphrase of many responses:

"You don't know how to measure, just give up and enjoy the music."

"It is all in your head!"

"You are a troll"

"You can't hear small differences in music"

Fortunately a few here are patience and willing to teach.....

What if I post in a nuclear physics forum that I cracked cold fusion?
The first thing they will ask for is the experiment protocol. If it is not air-tight, reproducible, beyond error bars of the measurements and/or beyond statistical noise, they will rightfully disregard my claims.

 

[Pdxwayne]

But what was the conclusion all said and done?

There indeed was measurable differences.

; )

 

[Pdxwayne]

What if I post in a nuclear physics forum that I cracked cold fusion?
The first thing they will ask is the experiment protocol. If it is not air-tight, reproducible, beyond error bars of the measurements and/or beyond statistical noise, they will rightfully disregard my claims.

Thus, I asked for ways for measurements. I met with mostly dismissal....

 

[oursmagenta]

Hi,

Quite simple : our ears can fool us.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Regards.

100% agree.

 

[dkinric]

Fair point, but would you still enjoy the movie if Neo tried to argue with Morpheus for hours before taking the blue pill in the end?

Lol. That would be a terrible movie. But a lot closer to real life.

 

[oursmagenta]

Thus, I asked for ways for measurements. I met with mostly dismissal....

The first step here is not the measurement per se. It is the protocol that can guarantee with a reasonable certainty that what you claimed perceiving is real/legit.

 

[oursmagenta]

Lol. That would be a terrible movie. But a lot closer to real life.

Yeah it seems so...

 

[Jimbob54]

There indeed was measurable differences.

; )

And the results of your blind tests as to their audibility? Either between dacs or between rca and xlr output on the same dac with volume reduced on xlr?

 

[kristiansen]

For me the problem with anybody giving listening impressions of a speaker is familiarity.
I am pretty sure we prefer what we are used to, and that is why talk of "break-in" is probably about somebody accustoming themselves to the difference between something new and what they are used to. This will take days or weeks not hours.
I would not expect Amir to like anything which deviates much from the Revel speakers he uses himself, whether they are a very good reference point or not (Harman data implies they should be).
That is why I think listening opinions about speakers are of limited value - just look at the magazine reviewers and how close to their favourites a review speaker is. There is plenty of praise for speakers with quite uneven FR and if you check out the reviewer's system the speakers he usually uses at home are uneven in a similar way.
Until I realised this I found subjective speaker reviews perplexing, now I just find them pointless

I agree that the reference is often what people themselves have of equipment, and it is not good if it is a Hifi reviewer, the reference should be the sound of live music, but instead Hifi reviewer throw around with all sorts of Hifi phrases apparently Without knowing that the fewer hifi phrases they need the better is the sound.

Top Hifi can not be attached Hifi phrases, should there be something that requires a "hifiiiiiii word"Can it be rejected on the next CD/ file, the system just plays with true-to-life sound and perspective, it is not always easy to measure, but easy to hear . Even people without golden ears can hear it.

 

[Pdxwayne]

And the results of your blind tests as to their audibility? Either between dacs or between rca and xlr output on the same dac with volume reduced on xlr?

Here is one of them:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...my-gustard-x16-measurements.20679/post-699296

The other, which you replied to, I simply gave up using xlr. Too stressful. There was another issue about using xlr splitter I mentioned in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...plitter-with-gustard-x16-ok.21215/post-710396, but no one could answer why.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Lol. That would be a terrible movie. But a lot closer to real life.

You are forgetting that prior to being offered the pills, Neo had a few experiences that pricked his bubble of normal perception. I find that very accurate to situations that eventually lead to paradigm shifts in personal perception. The final shift was preceded by several such experiences. That is in fact how I went from a subjectivist audiophile to one more on the other side of things. The final red pilling moment was a serial amplifier test of tube and solid state amps.

Also like Neo, it took additional learning and experience to 'trust' the new paradigm in which I had placed myself.

 

[Pdxwayne]

The first step here is not the measurement per se. It is the protocol that can guarantee with a reasonable certainty that what you claimed perceiving is real/legit.

I prefer the highs of one dac (used for a couple months) over the highs of a brand new DAC. I wonder why. Legit question?

 

[dkinric]

it is not always easy to measure, but easy to hear . Even people without golden ears can hear it.

Huh? Are you invoking the magic fairy dust argument? Surely we can agree that state of the art measuring equipment can "hear" much better than our ears? If we can't even agree on that, then you have taken the blue pill and you may happily go live in the Matrix...