Topping E30 vs Shiit Modius, any notable differences?

[Veri]

Last week I decided to put the cheap little E100 DAC back in and could immediately hear a difference. WTF? It sounded like it had more detail and clarity right away. I must have been imagining it and I could not trust what I was hearing so I did a blind test with my wife switching USB cables. I was able to identify the correct DAC 10 out of 10 times. Both DACs were level matched with a desktop microphone and I used the same track. This showed me that it is very possible to hear a difference between lower end DACs. The differences are not HUGE but they are there. I don't have golden ears either - I'm in my 40's. So, my advice is to try a blind test with a friend or a spouse if you're not sure and go with the cheaper DAC if you can't tell the difference.

The Radsone E100 has EQ/frequency response changes depending on its operating mode. Unless everything is turned OFF it is not a transparent DAC but one that changes the sound. So unless the Topping E30 is broken, my money's on that rather than these two DACs sounding so drastically different by themselves.

 

[eardiggler]

Yeah - first off the built in EQ on the E100 is absolutely fantastic and I do use it in a minimal way when I'm listening at very low levels in my office. But for this blind test I obviously turned the EQ off. The filters on both DACs were set to Sharp Roll-Off. But seriously, do you know anyone who can actually hear a difference in the filters? I find them a little pointless and confusing but I guess people like to tinker. Anyway, there is clearly a difference in sound between the two DACs. If I played both for you I bet you could hear the difference within 30 seconds of listening. The E30 sounds more flat and balanced while the E100 has slightly more exaggerated detail which is very pleasing to me personally. I'm guessing that if you could swap out just the DAC chip inside the same unit the difference in sound would be impossible to distinguish. To me it sounds like the implementation of the chip and how it's amplified on the board is having an affect on the sound here. I wish I preferred the E30 because it has a remote and is physically heavier.

 

[Veri]

Yeah - first off the built in EQ on the E100 is absolutely fantastic and I do use it in a minimal way when I'm listening at very low levels in my office. But for this blind test I obviously turned the EQ off. The filters on both DACs were set to Sharp Roll-Off. But seriously, do you know anyone who can actually hear a difference in the filters? I find them a little pointless and confusing but I guess people like to tinker. Anyway, there is clearly a difference in sound between the two DACs. If I played both for you I bet you could hear the difference within 30 seconds of listening. The E30 sounds more flat and balanced while the E100 has slightly more exaggerated detail which is very pleasing to me personally. I'm guessing that if you could swap out just the DAC chip inside the same unit the difference in sound would be impossible to distinguish. To me it sounds like the implementation of the chip and how it's amplified on the board is having an affect on the sound here. I wish I preferred the E30 because it has a remote and is physically heavier.

If it's not identical volume matched you're likely just hearing the differences in amplitude(volume). Very normal.. but very "explainable". Louder DAC usually sounds better, perceptibly.
And yeah filters don't do shit. Except for the Slow/Very slow ones that roll off well before 20kHz if you can still hear that high up..

 

[eardiggler]

I already mentioned that I matched the volume coming out of the speakers in the room with a mic. Trust me, I know the volume can make a difference here. I actually can hear more detail from the E100 even at lower volumes than the E30 at higher volume which goes against what typically happens. Perhaps I got a defective E30? I actually thought it had a polarity issue the first time I listened to it because it sounded so flat and boring. I searched to see if there was a firmware update but the date of manufacturing showed me it had corrected an issue with the incorrect polarity.

 

[Veri]

I already mentioned that I matched the volume coming out of the speakers in the room with a mic. Trust me, I know the volume can make a difference here. I actually can hear more detail from the E100 even at lower volumes than the E30 at higher volume which goes against what typically happens. Perhaps I got a defective E30? I actually thought it had a polarity issue the first time I listened to it because it sounded so flat and boring. I searched to see if there was a firmware update but the date of manufacturing showed me it had corrected an issue with the incorrect polarity.

If there would be a polarity issue, again most people can't hear this but some are particularly sensitive. So that could be a cause if it's the case

 

[Rottmannash]

My E30 sounds almost as good as my D70, which is 4x more expensive. You may have received a defective unit.

 

[eardiggler]

Yeah - I'm tempted to try another DAC just to rule out. I was listening again this evening and was in awe at how much better the worse measuring DAC sounds. Doesn't make any sense. Can you tell a difference between your D70 and E30 when swopping back and fourth? I'm curious what you notice.

 

[righthookmike]

As long as you understand that your inevitably biased subjective non level matched sighted opinion doesn't add much value here, then sure that's perfectly okay. Don't expect people here not to question whether you've listened with any controls if you're going to matter of factly state huge sound differences between audibly transparent DACs though. It's a recipe for arguments.

The other inevitably is you responding with some anger or explanation about how I'm deaf and the differences are obvious. But hear me out, if you actually were to implement some listening controls, like level matching the DACs and listening to them blindly while someone switches (or you get a switcher) I hypothesize that those huge sound differences are going to shrink to the point where you won't be able to reliably pick out the DACs in a statistical sampling that is any better than if you were randomly guessing. If you do that and are able to differentiate between them with some confidence level, then people here would be extremely interested in what you have to say. So it's not a personal thing against you. It's just that you would be the first! I would love for you to prove my hypothesis wrong.

Sorry I've been away. I'm not responding in anger, And how did we go from me explaining my personal perspective to you saying I'm going to tell you what you hear and angrily to boot? All I was saying is what I hear. You saying My point of view doesn't matter here is fine but I didn't realize you were appointed spokesman for everybody on this site. My only point is that if everything we hear could be measured with an instrument there would be no need for this site, no need for mastering engineers, all audio equipment could be perfect. We all see differently ,hear differently, taste etc... because I can hear subtle differences in sound is what makes me so addicted to audio equipment. I would welcome a blind test. Also without question these DAC's are different. I'm not sure if you are actually arguing that they are not? I enjoy debate, it doesn't upset me you have a different point of view I welcome it. so please explain how machines built by different people using different components sound the same? and if you truly believe they do I would be curious why you would spend your time on a audiophile site where people are always describing the differences in what they hear. I don't have much experience (none actually) in Making sure I could set the controls so there are no variables other than switching out the units. if you're willing to walk me through it I will report back on my observations after listening. my friend can switch them out so I wont know which is playing

 

[eardiggler]

It's funny how people are SO QUICK to tell you that what you are hearing is probably incorrect and that you are likely imagining it. I think they get some sort of childish cortisol rush out of policing people who like to express their observations and don't feel the need to blind test their equipment. The subtleties in sound are very small between DAC's but over the entire length of a song those small subtleties can 'feel' very significant and make a difference in ones enjoyment. I personally like vintage DAC's like the old Burr Brown that's in my NEC CD player from 1989. It probably measures like crap but to me it sounds buttery smooth, distortion and all. In any case, I blind tested my DAC's recently and got the correct DAC each time. It was a stupid test because it only proved something that I already knew. I had to pay particular attention to the slight reproduction differences in symbols, mid loudness and how bass notes compared. It was a little difficult at first but not impossible to point which DAC I was listening to by homing in on a few segments on the same track and repeating. That said, there is a small possibility my E30 (the DAC I tested) has a polarity issue which I'm not ruling out. It sounds flat and lifeless compared to my other cheap DAC. Go with whatever sounds good to you and don't let the measurement police get to you.

 

[Ellie]

It's funny how people are SO QUICK to tell you that what you are hearing is probably incorrect and that you are likely imagining it. I think they get some sort of childish cortisol rush out of policing people who like to express their observations and don't feel the need to blind test their equipment. The subtleties in sound are very small between DAC's but over the entire length of a song those small subtleties can 'feel' very significant and make a difference in ones enjoyment. I personally like vintage DAC's like the old Burr Brown that's in my NEC CD player from 1989. It probably measures like crap but to me it sounds buttery smooth, distortion and all. In any case, I blind tested my DAC's recently and got the correct DAC each time. It was a stupid test because it only proved something that I already knew. I had to pay particular attention to the slight reproduction differences in symbols, mid loudness and how bass notes compared. It was a little difficult at first but not impossible to point which DAC I was listening to by homing in on a few segments on the same track and repeating. That said, there is a small possibility my E30 (the DAC I tested) has a polarity issue which I'm not ruling out. It sounds flat and lifeless compared to my other cheap DAC. Go with whatever sounds good to you and don't let the measurement police get to you.

Have you considered the fact that it's because it's very likely, and as a result they spread false information around that results in less knowledgeable people spending heaps of money on things that don't actually make a difference?

It's misinformation and it actively hurts people and their wallets.

Also, unless you level matched your DAC outputs with a multimeter in voltage beforehand, a blind test isn't really going to be unbiased, since a human being will be able to pick out a 0.2 dB difference in volume.

Also also, like you said, your DACs have tons of audible distortion. You can hear the differences there. A DAC like the Modius or E30 aren't going to have that, and will sound the same as each other. That's all that's being said: two transparent DACs sound the same. There aren't subtle differences between the two that you can make out that a human can hear.

 

[eardiggler]

Seriously? Now I have to level match my DAC's with a voltmeter? WTF? You mean even though I level matched them with a microphone to the exact same DB and got it right 10 out of 10 times that's still not good enough? OK...I guess I will break out the old Fluke and do the stupid test again. My wife is going to love me for asking her to do this test again. I'm sure if I get it right there will be another variable that I did not include. Do I have to source an anechoic chamber to do this test the right way or is my suburban home listening room good enough? How deep do we have to go to make it valid?

 

[Veri]

Seriously? Now I have to level match my DAC's with a voltmeter? WTF? You mean even though I level matched them with a microphone to the exact same DB and got it right 10 out of 10 times that's still not good enough?

The 10 out of 10 times makes this shady as hell. DACs just don't sound that different unless there's a major cue you can hear each and every time. Like one rolling off the high-end by 6dB while the other is fine. If both would be identical performing you'd be very hard pressed to heard such vivid differences.

" It was a stupid test because it only proved something that I already knew. I had to pay particular attention to the slight reproduction differences in symbols, mid loudness and how bass notes compared. "
So, expectation bias and audiophile terms such as "mid loudness". I don't know, man.

 

[eardiggler]

Seriously? What expectation bias are you talking about? Do you just throw these terms out when you feel like it? You think mid-loudness is an audiophile term? I didn't use any magic unicorn words in my description. If I wanted to go there I would have said something like "the drums had more air and space between them, but the highs lacked the energy that I'm used to". 'Mid loudness' to me is what it would sound like if you took a flat frequency and boosted up the middle frequencies with an EQ. Have you ever used an EQ? How are those audiophile terms? I think thats pretty direct language. Shady? I find that offensive but I forgive you.

 

[Shazb0t]

Seriously? Now I have to level match my DAC's with a voltmeter? WTF? You mean even though I level matched them with a microphone to the exact same DB and got it right 10 out of 10 times that's still not good enough? OK...I guess I will break out the old Fluke and do the stupid test again. My wife is going to love me for asking her to do this test again. I'm sure if I get it right there will be another variable that I did not include. Do I have to source an anechoic chamber to do this test the right way or is my suburban home listening room good enough? How deep do we have to go to make it valid?

If you truely volume match and blind test an E30 against a Modius and can pick them out 10/10 times, let me know. Some microphone volume matched test against a rando old CD player isn't what I'm suggesting.

 

[eardiggler]

Yes, and I'm not saying it was a huge difference but for sake of everyone's doubts I'm going to run this test again with the voltage level matched (even though I doubt this will make a big enough difference) and update the E30 firmware to make sure the polarity isn't reversed.

 

[righthookmike]

anyway, I prefer the E30....... and we're talking about $100 DAC's so I didn't think it was that big of a deal

as a side note. I woke up this morning and the first song I heard was Steely Dan "boston Rag" cranked it up and man it sounded good

 

[righthookmike]

Yes, and I'm not saying it was a huge difference but for sake of everyone's doubts I'm going to run this test again with the voltage level matched (even though I doubt this will make a big enough difference) and update the E30 firmware to make sure the polarity isn't reversed.

Have you considered the fact that it's because it's very likely, and as a result they spread false information around that results in less knowledgeable people spending heaps of money on things that don't actually make a difference?

It's misinformation and it actively hurts people and their wallets.

Also, unless you level matched your DAC outputs with a multimeter in voltage beforehand, a blind test isn't really going to be unbiased, since a human being will be able to pick out a 0.2 dB difference in volume.

Also also, like you said, your DACs have tons of audible distortion. You can hear the differences there. A DAC like the Modius or E30 aren't going to have that, and will sound the same as each other. That's all that's being said: two transparent DACs sound the same. There aren't subtle differences between the two that you can make out that a human can hear.

Maybe you should change that to what YOU can hear. How can you put out a blanket statement about what I can hear? Subtleties are what differentiates us as individuals. Science is a great tool to be used but it's supposed to be a tool used to grow and learn. It is never an absolute or we couldn't learn expand and grow.

 

[Veri]

Florida man screams at objective audio science forum that his anecdotal audio experiences are not just blanket statements.


Anyway. Uh-huh. I'm just gonna say few people were will rally behind these kinds of experiences/personal findings. Because they are subjective and will vary from person to person and mood. That's just how experiences work.

 

[righthookmike]

I don't believe the point is that DACs all sound the same, as they don't but stating you could hear a difference between the two is. Do you think you could accurately identify each DAC if there were three instead of 2?

actually that is what made me able to distinguish so easily. i bought an adi2. it sounded fantastic, it just didn't have the sound that evokes emotion in me personally. I sent it back and went back to my modius. before It was great and now it was lifeless... I got the e30 just for a temporary to be moved to my garage when I get a crane song solaris. That's how strongly I felt about not being able to temporarily live with the modius. as I travel along the path I'm able to more easily distinguish what I am personally looking for. It doesn't mean I think one is better. I just know what is better for me.

 

[righthookmike]

Florida man screams at objective audio science forum that his anecdotal audio experiences are not just blanket statements.


Anyway. Uh-huh. I'm just gonna say few people were will rally behind these kinds of experiences/personal findings. Because they are subjective and will vary from person to person and mood. That's just how experiences work.

I'm not sure I quite understand your statement. To me it's a little vague though I am sure it is profound to you