Zensō
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If you’re going to hang out here, you might want to read this:
https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/what-we-hear.html?m=1
And this:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iles-posting-at-asr-for-the-first-time.17598/
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Topping E30 vs Shiit Modius, any notable differences?
- Thread starter Dragonstreamline
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If you’re going to hang out here, you might want to read this:
https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/what-we-hear.html?m=1
And this:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iles-posting-at-asr-for-the-first-time.17598/
Welcome!
I am certain that a lot, and by that I mean almost all, subjective differences between properly designed and measuring DACs comes down to non-level matched comparisons. It doesn't take much of a voltage difference to reach the accepted perception difference of 0.5dB
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If you can hear the difference between DACs, assuming both DACs are natively compatible to the source file, then one of your DACs are defective or its placebo. I am by no means an expert, and I could very well be wrong, but I often just recommend buying the DAC that has the features you want and the aesthetics you like, assuming it has no major faults or defects in its measurements.
OP
Dragonstreamline
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One thing I can come up with is the digital filter differences. The Modius has a fixed digital filter am I right? The Linear Phase Sharp Roll Off one right? That's the first filter of the E30. E30 has #3 Minimum phase sharp roll off as it's default filter. This could explain the owner of both hearing differences. For example if I were to put my Topping E30 on the 4th digital filter Short delay Slow Roll-off I'd notice a difference compared to the first Linear phase Sharp Roll-off. Bur its very track dependant on which filter I prefer. Maybe the difference that he is hearing can be attributed to that?
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Would you hear a difference? The rolloff happens at frequencies above the human hearing range.
OP
Dragonstreamline
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Yes, I tried blind tests on my LG V40 as well. Minimum phase slow roll off sounds more mid focused to me by shaving off the highs slightly, it sounds smoother but not as articulate. Sub Bass is more loose. Linear Phase Sharp roll off sounds brighter, more articulate, tighter but the sound generally sounds more artificial/analytical and grainy to me. Admittedly, some filters work better for certain tracks, so I switch back and forth quite a bit so I like this flexibility. Just my observations.
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Veri
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If both DACs use the default filter, they are both using "Minimum phase sharp". Which pretty much invalidates all of your observations...
jsrtheta
Addicted to Fun and Learning
A few thoughts from a grumpy old man. First, I am not a technical expert, so I am not speaking from that kind of authority. I am, though, as stated, a grumpy old man. One who has seen literally thousands of newer enthusiasts get involved in this hobby (I'm not speaking of the various audio professionals who lurk here, and to whom you should definitely listen as they know this shit far better than me). And I empathize because I was a new enthusiast once, and that meant I was like a plate of pork ribs in a sea of wolves.
Hard truths I learned: Almost any current DAC that has been competently designed and manufactured will be audibly indistinguishable from any other DAC. Does a $10,000 DAC sound the same as a $98 USB DAC from an ebay vendor? Almost always. Does a $50,000 Mark Levinson power amplifier sound different, under blind conditions, than an Onkyo Integra? Almost never. And, just in case you're curious, do $50,000/m speaker cables sound different from zip cord you'd buy to fix an old lamp? Fuck no. (If they do, it's probably because of something stupid done to the megabuck cables that in fact degrades their accuracy, frequency-response wise.)
Okay, I think you get my drift. Just remember that we're talking about devices here, not The Pieta. As someone who remembers 78rpm records, it's all a miracle, but in fact it's technology, not the Second Coming or proof of the supernatural.
It's just gear, mate. It doesn't "lift veils", it doesn't "see deeper into the music", it just performs the simple task of reproducing a signal that brings the magic.
The rest is all speakers, and that's where differences are made.
curiouspeter
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I did briefly consider the E30 and the Modius. Both appeared very good. However, the E30 did not have balanced outputs and the Modius only has PCM 24/192, which means my Roon server will have to do extra work downsampling some files. I ended up getting a Gustard X16 and I am quite happy with it. I am sure they will all sound the same to me.
Heck, my NEO iDSD and my X16 sound exactly the same to my ears using XLR. The iDSD costs an extra $200, has a headphone amp, and is more energy efficient. That's about it.
Heck, my NEO iDSD and my X16 sound exactly the same to my ears using XLR. The iDSD costs an extra $200, has a headphone amp, and is more energy efficient. That's about it.
OP
Dragonstreamline
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I was under the impression Modius has 1 filter, the linear phase sharp roll off one....
righthookmike
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i also have the modius and E30.
Maybe some people can't tell the difference in DACs but it;s very noticeable to me after just a few notes. In my system the E30 wins hands down. with the modius the low iend is much fuzzier and broken up at high levels. the E30 presents a better sound stage and the "phantom center channel is there" I would guess all systems are different. I also believe instruments used to measure response can only root out flawed components. there is nothing to suggest they can measure everything a human can hear and perceive
Maybe some people can't tell the difference in DACs but it;s very noticeable to me after just a few notes. In my system the E30 wins hands down. with the modius the low iend is much fuzzier and broken up at high levels. the E30 presents a better sound stage and the "phantom center channel is there" I would guess all systems are different. I also believe instruments used to measure response can only root out flawed components. there is nothing to suggest they can measure everything a human can hear and perceive
Did you do blind testing?
righthookmike
Active Member
I don't need to. i unplug one and plug in the other, no other changes. It's not unusual for me to listen to music on my main system 8hrs a day. I can tell the difference in songs. I'm not looking for differences to prove anything and I don;t need one to be better because of price,brand or any other reason. I just love music and my ears are very sensitive to sound. I don't need any kind of test to know what I like. But I would be willing to do a blind test...
Oki doki.
As long as you understand that your inevitably biased subjective non level matched sighted opinion doesn't add much value here, then sure that's perfectly okay. Don't expect people here not to question whether you've listened with any controls if you're going to matter of factly state huge sound differences between audibly transparent DACs though. It's a recipe for arguments.
The other inevitably is you responding with some anger or explanation about how I'm deaf and the differences are obvious. But hear me out, if you actually were to implement some listening controls, like level matching the DACs and listening to them blindly while someone switches (or you get a switcher) I hypothesize that those huge sound differences are going to shrink to the point where you won't be able to reliably pick out the DACs in a statistical sampling that is any better than if you were randomly guessing. If you do that and are able to differentiate between them with some confidence level, then people here would be extremely interested in what you have to say. So it's not a personal thing against you. It's just that you would be the first! I would love for you to prove my hypothesis wrong.
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raif71
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Yes blind testing and volume level matched. Volume level matched is important. I did several DACs level matched (sighted though) and found the DACs that I tried, sound the same. Having said that, I'm sure you heard some difference when listening to them individually because some DACs at the same volume dial of the amp perform differently for example an E30 with L30 will definitely sound different than the modius with L30 at the same L30 dial level and to some people one is better than the other but level matched them, they should sound the same. The performance, features, price etc. of the DAC and the Amp will influence on how people perceive which to be "better". For me, as I like more headroom at the amp, I may prefer the DAC that will give me this extra headroom (volume wise).
Veri
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That would be interesting!
eardiggler
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Interesting discussion. I actually came across this thread because I was searching google this evening to see if anyone found the E30 to sound a little 'dead'. I came from a little Ear Studio E100 portable DAC which was my workhorse for a few years. I 'upgraded' to a Toppings E30 after reading all the positive reviews on it - and looking at the stellar measurements. Frankly, the E30 just sounded dull to me right off the bat. I thought it had a polarity issue at first. But being a stubborn person who thinks most DACs sound the same I just stuck with it for the last 3 month. Last week I decided to put the cheap little E100 DAC back in and could immediately hear a difference. WTF? It sounded like it had more detail and clarity right away. I must have been imagining it and I could not trust what I was hearing so I did a blind test with my wife switching USB cables. I was able to identify the correct DAC 10 out of 10 times. Both DACs were level matched with a desktop microphone and I used the same track. This showed me that it is very possible to hear a difference between lower end DACs. The differences are not HUGE but they are there. I don't have golden ears either - I'm in my 40's. So, my advice is to try a blind test with a friend or a spouse if you're not sure and go with the cheaper DAC if you can't tell the difference.
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I don't believe the point is that DACs all sound the same, as they don't but stating you could hear a difference between the two is. Do you think you could accurately identify each DAC if there were three instead of 2?
eardiggler
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I think 3 different DACs would be difficult. Take in mind I spent 100's of hours listening to both DACs in near field on a daily basis so I think it was easier for me to hear the difference between the two. The E100 just sounds brighter and the E30 sounds a little flatter. It's sort of like comparing a horn driver to a dome tweeter for lack of better examples. If these were brand new DAC's I probably would have a much harder time hearing the differences right away.
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