DAC burn-in/break-in? My Gustard X16 measurements

[Pdxwayne]

Here's the thing:
You are talking about 0.02dB difference at 4kHz and 0.1dB difference at 7kHz.

The question is how reliable your measurements are anyway.
For example, the E30 measures 0.486V @ 1kHz and 0.288V @ 10kHz.
This means that acc. to your measurements 10kHz is -4.5dB which it isn't at all, in fact it is way less than -0.1dB off.

How can you be sure your measurements are correct when every MM is always +/- 1 last digit per definition ?

Maybe, just maybe 0.1dB is barely audible in blind tests (I have never been able to detect any audible differences below 0.2dB amplitude differences with tones) but certainly will not be an audible subjective difference you described hearing.

What about the changes in 2Kh? How many dB is that? Thanks!

 

[SIY]

What about the changes in 2Kh? How many dB is that? Thanks!

About 0.05 dB.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Anything can contribute to this.

To start. Burn in or break in happens to anything objectively. It's just has always been a fact. The issue is people claim audible difference after burn in. So let's first get this out of the way.

Now on to your question. Anything in the dac can drift. But even more things can potentially affect your reading even though it's not what you are actually thinking you are measuring. There are high frequency content in these dacs, not just the tone you are generating. So the chance of some of those changing is much higher. Also there can be mains interference/magnetic interference affecting these cheap meters. The loop length, the area of the loop of the wire can affect these changes. This is just too small of a change that it just can be affected by anything. Even the state of the DAC's asrc is in can affect your reading. You were just luckily the value is like that. The mains voltage of your house can vary. The distortion in the mains voltage can change which may affect the interference generated. You need a much much more controlled environment, much much better equipment and at least much much greater difference to even start thinking about answering your question. At the moment the measurements are in fact showing you that there's basically no difference. So I suggest just forget about it. I don't think you should do this experiment. I don't think you have the required knowledge to even design the experiment. Why not just enjoy music for once?

 

[Pdxwayne]

Anything can contribute to this.

To start. Burn in or break in happens to anything objectively. It's just has always been a fact. The issue is people claim audible difference after burn in. So let's first get this out of the way.

Now on to your question. Anything in the dac can drift. But even more things can potentially affect your reading even though it's not what you are actually thinking you are measuring. There are high frequency content in these dacs, not just the tone you are generating. So the chance of some of those changing is much higher. Also there can be mains interference/magnetic interference affecting these cheap meters. The loop length, the area of the loop of the wire can affect these changes. This is just too small of a change that it just can be affected by anything. Even the state of the DAC's asrc is in can affect your reading. You were just luckily the value is like that. The mains voltage of your house can vary. The distortion in the mains voltage can change which may affect the interference generated. You need a much much more controlled environment, much much better equipment and at least much much greater difference to even start thinking about answering your question. At the moment the measurements are in fact showing you that there's basically no difference. So I suggest just forget about it. I don't think you should do this experiment. I don't think you have the required knowledge to even design the experiment. Why not just enjoy music for once?

Thanks!

I do wonder why E30 so stable.

I have measured it in 3 difference locations of my house, multiple audio setups, multiple different times and multiple dates.

Once I voltage matched it with L30 to certain voltage output at 1Khz, all subsequent 2khz, 3Khz, ... to 10 Hz voltage captured are within 0.001V of previous measurements.

 

[Pdxwayne]

About 0.05 dB.

Thanks!

Curious, what other things, other than my brain, could account for x16 not sounding right initially? Like I said, I was so enjoy a song with E30 for two weeks. I can't get same enjoyment out of X16 initially. It was so bad that I thought the optical in was defective/inferior and I bought a coaxial cable to use.

 

[SIY]

Thanks!

Curious, what other things, other than my brain, could account for x16 not sounding right initially? Like I said, I was so enjoy a song with E30 for two weeks. I can't get same enjoyment out of X16 initially. It was so bad that I thought the optical in was defective and I bought a coaxial cable to use.

Well, you just set aside far and away the most likely answer!

 

[Pdxwayne]

Well, you just set aside far and away the most likely answer!

Yeah, it didn't sound right initially using optical in. I even asked Gustard if optical in is inferior to coaxial. I ordered the coaxial one week after I did the initial measurements. Even with coaxial, initially it still didn't sound right. Not until last week, about 2 weeks of use, I am enjoying the same song as much as E30.

Brain issue for 3 weeks???

Anyway, have you ever done a before after measurements of a brand new DAC?

 

[Pdxwayne]

Anything can contribute to this.

To start. Burn in or break in happens to anything objectively. It's just has always been a fact. The issue is people claim audible difference after burn in. So let's first get this out of the way.

Now on to your question. Anything in the dac can drift. But even more things can potentially affect your reading even though it's not what you are actually thinking you are measuring. There are high frequency content in these dacs, not just the tone you are generating. So the chance of some of those changing is much higher. Also there can be mains interference/magnetic interference affecting these cheap meters. The loop length, the area of the loop of the wire can affect these changes. This is just too small of a change that it just can be affected by anything. Even the state of the DAC's asrc is in can affect your reading. You were just luckily the value is like that. The mains voltage of your house can vary. The distortion in the mains voltage can change which may affect the interference generated. You need a much much more controlled environment, much much better equipment and at least much much greater difference to even start thinking about answering your question. At the moment the measurements are in fact showing you that there's basically no difference. So I suggest just forget about it. I don't think you should do this experiment. I don't think you have the required knowledge to even design the experiment. Why not just enjoy music for once?

Would love it if you could buy a brand new x16 and do measurements of it when brand new. That would be very cool!

 

[ninetylol]

You still hear a difference between optical and other inputs?

 

[SIY]

Yeah, it didn't sound right initially using optical in. I even asked Gustard if optical in is inferior to coaxial. I ordered the coaxial one week after I did the initial measurements. Even with coaxial, initially it still didn't sound right. Not until last week, about 2 weeks of use, I am enjoying the same song as much as E30.

Brain issue for 3 weeks???

Anyway, have you ever done a before after measurements of a brand new DAC?

Brain issues are inherent to humans.

Yes, I routinely measure DACs and other gear over time, not because they change, but because of my work schedule. Even with my racks full of Audio Precision, Hewlett Packard, Tektronix, and GenRad gear, I’d be very hesitant to try to claim significance with those sorts of numbers.

 

[Pdxwayne]

You still hear a difference between optical and other inputs?

In my stereo setup, I haven't gone back to optical since I switched to coaxial. But, my measurements from last Sunday are showing that optical and coaxial should have similar quality now.

See my measurements in another thread comparing DAC based on optical and coaxial input here
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-to-check-with-measurements.20505/post-681388

 

[Pdxwayne]

Brain issues are inherent to humans.

Yes, I routinely measure DACs and other gear over time, not because they change, but because of my work schedule. Even with my racks full of Audio Precision, Hewlett Packard, Tektronix, and GenRad gear, I’d be very hesitant to try to claim significance with those sorts of numbers.

Cool! But did you see differences from brand new?

 

[SIY]

Cool! But did you see differences from brand new?

Not in the sense you mean it, no.

 

[krabapple]

Thanks!

Curious, what other things, other than my brain,

In this case, none.

 

[Jimbob54]

Fair play to you, you are engaging in the science part of all this far more than I could ever be bothered to do. But I have to ask you, you have been ploughing this furrow for a few weeks. What conclusions have you drawn, either from what you have done or what others have added/ discussed with you?

 

[Pdxwayne]

Not in the sense you mean it, no.

Let me see if I understood you right. You have NOT measured voltages output for all freq range of brand new DAC, then measured voltages output of all freq range of the same DAC a few weeks later?

 

[GDK]

Anyone here with proper equipments want to buy x16 and do same experiments? That would be awesome.

Good news! That has already been done:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...x16-balanced-mqa-dac-review.17419/post-564092

 

[Pdxwayne]

Fair play to you, you are engaging in the science part of all this far more than I could ever be bothered to do. But I have to ask you, you have been ploughing this furrow for a few weeks. What conclusions have you drawn, either from what you have done or what others have added/ discussed with you?

My assertion:
What I heard initially (when x16 was brand new) was unlikely to be expectation bias nor voltage matched issue between E30 and x16.

Like I mentioned multiple times, although my meter is not correct, it was consistent.

I am going to repeat this.

I have measured Topping E30 in 3 difference locations of my house, multiple audio setups, multiple different times and multiple dates.

Once I voltage matched it with L30 to certain voltage output at 1Khz, all subsequent 2khz, 3Khz, ... to 10 Hz voltage captured are within 0.001V of previous measurements.

Same result for KTB. No more than 0.001V difference.

So, why Gustard x16 showing as much as 0.004V difference in just 3 weeks used from brand new?

Lots of people here talked about controlled environment. But no one here can explain why my measurements for E30 is so stable.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Good news! That has already been done:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...x16-balanced-mqa-dac-review.17419/post-564092

Do you know if Amir got a brand new X16 or sample that was well used/tested by Gustard already? Which scenario is more likely?

 

[Jimbob54]

My assertion:
What I heard initially (when x16 was brand new) was unlikely to be expectation bias nor voltage matched issue between E30 and x16.

Like I mentioned multiple times, although my meter is not correct, it was consistent.

I am going to repeat this.

I have measured Topping E30 in 3 difference locations of my house, multiple audio setups, multiple different times and multiple dates.

Once I voltage matched it with L30 to certain voltage output at 1Khz, all subsequent 2khz, 3Khz, ... to 10 Hz voltage captured are within 0.001V of previous measurements.

Same result for KTB. No more than 0.001V difference.

So, why Gustard x16 showing as much as 0.004V difference in just 3 weeks used from brand new?

Lots of people here talked about controlled environment. But no one here can explain why my measurements for E30 is so stable.

You've lost me there . I didnt ask about your meter, your house or anything else. Im interested in what your endeavours may have yielded in terms of your understanding about comparing DACs between units and over time.

You seem to perceive things, measure, see differences in measurements and then run with the measurement difference being the reason for the differences your ears/ brain perceive. Is that a fair understanding of where you are at? If not, I would genuinely like to know what your efforts have yielded.

You perceive the X16 sounded differently now to when new, you see changes in the measured voltages then and now- QED?