Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Zensō]

Indeed. If you come to this site with the intent of questioning whether technically sound components sound the same then you will be met with scornful rejection.

And if I go to SBAF or HeadFi and mention expectation bias or A/B testing I'm met with the same.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I don't think "scornful rejection" is accurate - at least for those genuinely confused and reasonably open to learning.

I agree, this place is very helpful at aiding people who are not naturally technically minded to avoid costly diversions into fashionable and/or very questionable pseudo technical BS which is so prevalent in the hobby.
It takes aptitude and years of study to understand a lot of this stuff so few people do. There is a lot of completely false information and opinion in most, if not all, of the other forums I have read a lot of it from self styled Gurus.

 

[Lbstyling]

I'm not understanding what that has to do with buying nice things.

Apologies, I think I quoted your post when I should have quoted the post you were replying to.

 

[Gorgonzola]

And if I go to SBAF or HeadFi and mention expectation bias or A/B testing I'm met with the same.

You're right, of course, about audiophile sites.

But I do sometimes wonder if an objectivist hears no difference between components, whether that too might be explained by expectation bias? Or alternatively if the objectivist subjectively perceives difference, to which bias does he/she attribute it?

 

[watchnerd]

You're right, of course, about audiophile sites.

But I do sometimes wonder if an objectivist hears no difference between components, whether that too might be explained by expectation bias? Or alternatively if the objectivist subjectively perceives difference, to which bias does he/she attribute it?

I can fail a hard ABX test on comparisons I've successfully passed before if I'm not concentrating, not really trying, or just not in the mood to make a mental effort.

So if I don't want to try to hear a difference, maybe I won't?

 

[SIY]

You're right, of course, about audiophile sites.

But I do sometimes wonder if an objectivist hears no difference between components, whether that too might be explained by expectation bias? Or alternatively if the objectivist subjectively perceives difference, to which bias does he/she attribute it?

I hear all kinds of differences before implementing controls. Afterwards, I sometimes do, and doing controls allows me high confidence that the differences are real.

 

[Frank Dernie]

You're right, of course, about audiophile sites.

But I do sometimes wonder if an objectivist hears no difference between components, whether that too might be explained by expectation bias? Or alternatively if the objectivist subjectively perceives difference, to which bias does he/she attribute it?

From an engineering perspective, whether in hifi or my work, if I found a difference I investigated what caused it, particularly the unexpected ones, since it is here you learn something new.
Everything which behaves exactly as expected and predicted gives zero opportunity to learn something new.

 

[sergeauckland]

You're right, of course, about audiophile sites.

But I do sometimes wonder if an objectivist hears no difference between components, whether that too might be explained by expectation bias? Or alternatively if the objectivist subjectively perceives difference, to which bias does he/she attribute it?

Absolutely. That's why I'm very poor at blind tests as my expectation bias stops me hearing things that may be audible. Unless I expect to hear a difference, I won't.

S

 

[watchnerd]

From an engineering perspective, whether in hifi or my work, if I found a difference I investigated what caused it, particularly the unexpected ones, since it is here you learn something new.
Everything which behaves exactly as expected and predicted gives zero opportunity to learn something new.

I've also surprised myself sometimes with how small of a difference I can hear.

0.5 dB difference in FR if it spans an entire octave, for instance.

 

[sergeauckland]

I've also surprised myself sometimes with how small of a difference I can hear.

0.5 dB difference in FR if it spans an entire octave, for instance.

I would only hear that if I expected it to be 3dB!

S

 

[Lbstyling]

I would only hear that if I expected it to be 3dB!

S

Over a wide Q its quite clear when EQing headphones in the mid band, much easier than trying to tell if the volume total is raised or lowered by this because it changes the balance.

 

[krabapple]

You're right, of course, about audiophile sites.

But I do sometimes wonder if an objectivist hears no difference between components, whether that too might be explained by expectation bias? Or alternatively if the objectivist subjectively perceives difference, to which bias does he/she attribute it?

I am increasingly thinking there should be sticky threads for asked-and-answered topics...

Anyway. What you should think harder about is the *subjectivist* who 'hears' the 'difference' sighted but not in blind tests.

 

[watchnerd]

What you should think harder about is the *subjectivist* who 'hears' the 'difference' sighted but not in blind tests.

This tendency describes everyone.

Including you.

Cognitive bias and placebo effects aren't some sinful maladies that only affect 'those other people'.

 

[Robin L]

This tendency describes everyone.

Including you.

Cognitive bias and placebo effects aren't some sinful malady that only affects 'those other people'.

My big placebo effect is the smell of old tube gear outgassing.

One of my most profound olfactory memories came to me when the transformer and/or caps blew out in our 1955 RCA, round tube, cathode ray TV in our living room, November 22, 1963. The room was filled with smoke.

 

[raif71]

Differences in hearing may be like quantum superposition, when not measured you may observe two states, different or not different but when systems are measured or in a control environment, then you will observe only either state. The reality is both states are real and exist simultaneously

 

[krabapple]

This tendency describes everyone.

Including you.

Cognitive bias and placebo effects aren't some sinful maladies that only affect 'those other people'.

Which tendency are you referring to?

The person I was replying to is worrying about a 'tendency' among objectivists to not hear differences that might be real.

 

[watchnerd]

Which tendency are you referring to?

The person I was replying to is worrying about a 'tendency' among objectivists to not hear differences that might be real.

Both. All of them.

Any cognitive bias can have an impact.

It's not an 'either / or' situation.

 

[watchnerd]

Differences in hearing may be like quantum superposition, when not measured you may observe two states, different or not different but when systems are measured or in a control environment, then you will observe only either state. The reality is both states are real and exist simultaneously

No.

It's nothing like that.

 

[murraycamp]

Differences in hearing may be like quantum superposition, when not measured you may observe two states, different or not different but when systems are measured or in a control environment, then you will observe only either state. The reality is both states are real and exist simultaneously

Far out man.

 

[watchnerd]

Far out man.

What ASR really needs is more posters with experiences with hallucinogens.