Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[krabapple]

What complicates things is that their is no purely audio input for humans. I am entirely in the "no audible differences between cables (and most electronics) camp." But I am not convinced that this knowledge either enhances my enjoyment of music or makes me a more accurate/discerning listener.

Straw man. No one is saying it should do either of those things.

What it should do is make you properly cautious of making or believing dubious claims of audible difference.

Innerspace's excellent post describes one problem. The angry response we get when proving that cables don't have a sound may be partly because even though we are right, we are sucking some of the enjoyment out of their audio experiences. The goal of music is happiness not truth, right?

Sure, believe in lies if it makes you happy. Just don't promulgate them

A 2nd problem is that this knowledge may not make us less biased listeners.

Straw man. No one says it does.

A few years back an article (in Stereophile I think) described a demonstration where listeners were asked to distinguish between the sound of 2 pairs of speaker cables in a blind test. Nearly all of those who believed cables made a difference heard major differences. The vast majority of those who did not believe, heard no difference. The demonstrator's trick was that there was a difference. One of the 2 choices were wired out of phase. This clearly audible difference was not heard by "science based" listeners who did not believe it existed. This story may be apocryphal but its certainly truthy.

"truthy" is not truth.

I am convinced that expectation bias is an inevitable part of all of our senses, logic, and thoughts. In pursuits where the goal is enjoyment, as in music and fine dining, that may be a good thing. In pursuits where the goal is survival, like politics; bad things can happen when the fantasy world collides with the real.

Sure, believe in lies if it makes you happy. Just don't promulgate them.

 

[krabapple]

I'm talking about the guys on this thread.

How is recommending Revel because it has great spinorama results self-serving if you don't work for Revel? Or even own Revel speakers?

 

[krabapple]

Your last phrase there is really interesting (thanks for sharing) because 40-some years ago there was a seminal blind test involving John Atkinson, among others, in which predictably no difference was heard between amps, so Atkinson bought a Quad 405. He used it for a spell, before relapsing.

His professed reason for relapsing was that the joy had been sucked out of listening to music, which quickly became a subjectivist meme, which eventually housed all the "things-we-can't-measure" and "long-term-is-essential" issues we still hear today. At the time I thought Atkinson was wrong, but strangely sincere. I guess, per your experience, he was missing the fun of the upgrade merry-go-round. Buying stuff is fun. We all know that. I love the way ASR people thread the needle by putting a system in every room ... and the garage.

Here is one of Atkinson's retellings of that tale, in 1997:

Over 10 years ago, for example, I failed to distinguish a Quad 405 from a Naim NAP250 or a TVA tube amplifier in such a blind test organized by Martin Colloms (footnote 2). Convinced by these results of the validity in the Consumer Reports philosophy, I consequently sold my exotic and expensive Lecson power amplifier with which I had been very happy and bought a much cheaper Quad 405—the biggest mistake of my audiophile career!

Some amplifiers which cannot be distinguished reliably under formal blind conditions do not sound similar over lengthy listening in more familiar and relaxed circumstances.

He did not test this latter claim under blind conditions. Or put another way: the latter claim is simply an extension of the trivially true claim: And an B sound different under sighted conditions. We know that already. We also know it's not necessarily due to actual audible difference. His anecdote proves nothing about the objective performance of the gear. It proves he doesn't consider that as important as the subjective.

And that's fine. But to spend years slamming blind testing of audiophile claims based on that, is not.

 

[egellings]

I can clearly hear the difference if one speaker is connected with backward polarity. Musical instrument sounds are diffuse, and bass is markedly reduced when an out of phase condition occurs. Fix that and everything snaps back into place. I have tried different pairs of competent correctly connected cables and could not tell the difference at all.

 

[GGroch]

I can clearly hear the difference if one speaker is connected with backward polarity. Musical instrument sounds are diffuse, and bass is markedly reduced.....

If you are referring to the story in my post here. You are right, most careful listeners can tell the difference between in phase and out of phase stereo connections. This difference is real and can also easily be measured with microphones.

The point of the story was that if you (like me) believe that there are no differences in sound between cables, and are then are asked to compare the sound of 2 cables, you are less likely to hear a difference because of your pre-existing beliefs, whether that difference exists or not.

I think that is fair criticism. But it also proves the proposition that every human has expectation bias in non-blind tests. Telling you ahead of time that the test is between 2 cables (not cables in and out of phase), means the test is not blind. The results will be impacted by expectations. So, if AudioQuest is looking for a subjective listening tester for their audio cables, they would be foolish to pick me to do it.

 

[egellings]

I agree with you completely. Beliefs play heavily when trying to perceive exceedingly tiny differences in sound quality, which would be the case for the effects of two different electrically competent cables. No question there at all. So long as you don't take belief and proclaim it truth without testing, I'm a happy camper.

 

[krabapple]

If you are referring to the story in my post here. You are right, most careful listeners can tell the difference between in phase and out of phase stereo connections. This difference is real and can also easily be measured with microphones.

The point of the story was that if you (like me) believe that there are no differences in sound between cables, and are then are asked to compare the sound of 2 cables, you are less likely to hear a difference because of your pre-existing beliefs, whether that difference exists or not.

I think that is fair criticism. But it also proves the proposition that every human has expectation bias in non-blind tests. Telling you ahead of time that the test is between 2 cables (not cables in and out of phase), means the test is not blind. The results will be impacted by expectations. So, if AudioQuest is looking for a subjective listening tester for their audio cables, they would be foolish to pick me to do it.

Your story, as far as I can tell, is apocryphal right now. I've never heard its like before. If you can find a link that documents it, please post it.

 

[Shorty]

Yes, expectation bias works both ways. That’s why the participants in such a test should not be told what the test is about - the only thing they are asked to do is to answer the question if they hear a difference between A, B and X.

 

[GGroch]

Your story, as far as I can tell, is apocryphal right now. I've never heard its like before. If you can find a link that documents it, please post it.

Here is a long thread discussing it in 2018. A very interesting discussion I think.

My old man memory got a couple of the points wrong. The original article was in Absolute Sound. Participants were told they were listening to swaps of power cords (not speaker wires)....but indeed what was actually swapped was the polarity of one set of the speaker wires, and according to the author, objectivists could not hear it. Absolute Sound reported it as an actual event.

In my view, the error Thorsten Loesch and Absolute Sound made was thinking this was a blind test, which it was not. It proves the opposite of what they thought it proved.

 

[krabapple]

Absolute Sound anecdotes carry zero weight with me.

Also, you have misconstrued what 'blind test' means. The reported test was a single blind test. That is not 'blind' enough for publication -- double blind protocols are standard -- but it is still a blind test.

And it does not sound like it could have an 'ABX' test either. A test where cables are physically swapped such that 'X' could at any time be compared to A or B -- i.e., an ABX test -- sounds rather comically unwieldy.

 

[GGroch]

....You have misconstrued what 'blind test' means. The reported test was a single blind test.....

The "Objectivists Have Tin Ears" thread is nearly 200 posts long and it would be silly to relitigate it here. It is not a blind test. If the story is true, the A/B preference switching was a red herring. See the short but revelatory post #70 in that thread. If the power cords HAD been changed, or if the tester had actually changed nothing (A/B were the same), we would expect the objectivists and subjectivists would have responded the same way. Objectivists would not hear a change, subjectivists would. The only difference is that the objectivists would then be praised for their exceptionally good hearing.

 

[krabapple]

Any test where identifying or influencing information is withheld from the subject during the trials, is a blind test. That the listeners thought they were comparing power cords, when in fact they were comparing in-phase vs out-of-phase, is irrelevant. And the curious (supposed) results of the test do not change its (single) 'blinded' nature.

 

[MattHooper]

If you are referring to the story in my post here. You are right, most careful listeners can tell the difference between in phase and out of phase stereo connections. This difference is real and can also easily be measured with microphones.

The point of the story was that if you (like me) believe that there are no differences in sound between cables, and are then are asked to compare the sound of 2 cables, you are less likely to hear a difference because of your pre-existing beliefs, whether that difference exists or not.

I think that is fair criticism. But it also proves the proposition that every human has expectation bias in non-blind tests. Telling you ahead of time that the test is between 2 cables (not cables in and out of phase), means the test is not blind. The results will be impacted by expectations. So, if AudioQuest is looking for a subjective listening tester for their audio cables, they would be foolish to pick me to do it.

Yes, agreed, it's good to remember that expectation, and other biases, contaminate anyone's inferences.

And there's even the issue of interest level: I've had tons of very different speakers, but my wife (who doesn't give a damn about hi-fi) sits in front of a new pair and claims "sounds the same to me." Says all my speakers sound the same.

I have the "anti-audiophile wife" story Instead of the audiophile/reviewer anecdote of the wife calling from the "kitchen" "Honey, did you change something? It sounds different now!" I get my wife spotting a new piece of gear: "Did you buy something new? It sounds the same."

 

[Inner Space]

Yes, agreed, it's good to remember that expectation, and other biases, contaminate anyone's inferences.

And there's even the issue of interest level: I've had tons of very different speakers, but my wife (who doesn't give a damn about hi-fi) sits in front of a new pair and claims "sounds the same to me." Says all my speakers sound the same.

I have the "anti-audiophile wife" story Instead of the audiophile/reviewer anecdote of the wife calling from the "kitchen" "Honey, did you change something? It sounds different now!" I get my wife spotting a new piece of gear: "Did you buy something new? It sounds the same."

Imagine saying, "Did you buy new shoes? They look the same."

 

[Sukie]

I get my wife spotting a new piece of gear: "Did you buy something new? It sounds the same."

I am far more likely to get "what the f**k did that cost?". I find that if I buy small, discreet items then I get away with it.

 

[Robin L]

Yes, agreed, it's good to remember that expectation, and other biases, contaminate anyone's inferences.

And there's even the issue of interest level: I've had tons of very different speakers, but my wife (who doesn't give a damn about hi-fi) sits in front of a new pair and claims "sounds the same to me." Says all my speakers sound the same.

I have the "anti-audiophile wife" story Instead of the audiophile/reviewer anecdote of the wife calling from the "kitchen" "Honey, did you change something? It sounds different now!" I get my wife spotting a new piece of gear: "Did you buy something new? It sounds the same."

I've been getting too many headphones lately, my wife [blessedly] hardly notices. Though she did note two days ago that I now have a headphone "tree":

However, for many years my wife has collected crystals and rocks. There's no room for them where we live now, only a few are on display. But whenever I bring a new headphone in the house, all I have to say is "crystals".

[Macro shot of one of her large quartz crystals, illuminated from underneath with an LED color wheel]:

 

[MattHooper]

Imagine saying, "Did you buy new shoes? They look the same."

Admittedly, I use that one when she gets here hair done ;-)

 

[MattHooper]

I am far more likely to get "what the f**k did that cost?". I find that if I buy small, discreet items then I get away with it.

Yup, the price of being in a relationship.

With my wife we came to a "don't ask don't tell." She generally doesn't want to know how much things cost, but over the years, having had glimpses here and there when I'm selling gear, she has some ideas. (If she asks about the price of a new piece of equipment, I don't fib about the cost).

 

[Dialectic]

Being on this forum has helped me get purchases under control. I haven't bought anything (other than CDs) in over a year.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Being on this forum has helped me get purchases under control. I haven't bought anything (other than CDs) in over a year.

My wife is likelier to be annoyed at me for spending time posting on ASR than she is at me for buying audio gear . . .

Since joining ASR late last year, I bought 3 DAC and one amp......