Cheap drivers in high end monitors / speakers

[Pearljam5000]

I saw on another forum that famous monitors costing thousands of dollars use outsourced drivers that cost around 100€ , obviously I was shocked, but then I realized it was much more common than I thought with many companies.
Obviously there are much more costs other than just parts, but I don't know it just doesn't feel OK.
And this leads me to prefer companies that make the drivers in house.
What are your thoughts?
Edited *

 

[Killingbeans]

Obviously there are much more costs other than just parts, but I don't know it just doesn't feel OK.

An assumption: You've never been at the helm of a company that produces goods? One of the unwritten rules is that you don't set the product price at what seems reasonable from your own perspective. Instead you start with what you hope will keep everything afloat and then you add whatever the customer is willing to pay before they start complaining. Often that will just get you to the actual point where everything is kept afloat.

And this leads me to prefer companies that make the drivers in house.

They probably try to keep the production cost per driver way lower than $30 $100. That's the main benefit of cutting out the middleman

 

[DSJR]

Problem with small companies making their own drivers (or in one UK case, specifying SB Acoustics to make a custom driver version different to their main production if bought in enough quantity) is that if said companies cease trading for whatever reason, you can't get spares without canibalising a second pair for parts! When you get to my age and look back fifty years or more, it's interesting to see which products can get service of a sort...

 

[Blumlein 88]

Parts cost to retail price in speakers will usually be between a 1 to 5 and 1 to 10 ratio.

 

[617]

I saw on another forum that famous monitors costing thousands of dollars use outsourced tweeters that cost around 30$ and the woofers cost about the same , obviously I was shocked, but then I realized it was much more common than I thought with many companies.
Obviously there are much more costs other than just parts, but I don't know it just doesn't feel OK.
And this leads me to prefer companies that make the drivers in house.
What are your thoughts?

Highly optimized inexpensive drivers can achieve great performance. A 30 dollar tweeter can easily have ultra low distortion if used carefully.

Expensive dome tweeters are, in my opinion, a way of fixing an intrinsically poor system design.

Woofers are a bit different, but if the monitor in question has a steep high pass filter on the woofer, you can do well with a fairly modest unit.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Problem with small companies making their own drivers (or in one UK case, specifying SB Acoustics to make a custom driver version different to their main production if bought in enough quantity) is that if said companies cease trading for whatever reason, you can't get spares without canibalising a second pair for parts! When you get to my age and look back fifty years or more, it's interesting to see which products can get service of a sort...

That's why I would buy a product from a company like Genelec, they make the drivers in house and you know they'd still be here in 30 years.

 

[Jdunk54nl]

It isn't just about the drivers, the cabinet is usually designed to complement everything and not just a random design. The crossover design is designed to complement everything and not just random. Placement of the port (if used) and size is designed to to complement everything. Etc. Etc. Finally finish on the cabinet is a PITA...

All of this takes time and a properly designed speaker (includes everything drivers, cabinet, port, etc) optimizes everything. You aren't just paying for the drivers. You are paying for all of that research and time it takes to build the entire speaker system.

Try doing all of that on your own, it isn't easy and takes some special equipment to get it right.

To make drivers in house requires a lot of expensive equipment not feasible for quite a few manufacturers. It would up their cost on the speakers and wouldn't benefit anyone, so why do it?

Same thing with paying a person $100+ to fix something that takes them 5 minutes. You aren't really paying them to fix it, you are paying for all of the time it took them to learn how to fix it in 5 minutes.

 

[CDMC]

It is dangerous to try and correlate the price of drivers in a speaker to its quality or value. It starts with two incorrect assumptions 1) that driver quality is directly proportional to its price, and 2) that driver quality is the primary factor in the quality of a speaker.

A speaker, like most things, is the sum of its components, quality of design, and implementation. Amazing drivers in a poor enclosure with a poor crossover make for a poor speaker. Decent drivers with a well designed and executed crossover and enclosure make for a good speaker. At the end of the day the only way to evaluate the value of a speaker it to look at the end result and see how it measures up to its competitors.

A perfect example is the Philharmonic BMR. It measures well, has excellent subjective reviews and is considered an amazing value at $1,700. It uses expensive RAAL tweeters and depending on the generation Scanspeak or SB Acoustics woofers. However, the speaker was designed around the BMR midrange, which was actually designed as a full range small driver for inexpensive bluetooth and portable speakers. The BMR drivers cost something like $20 a piece. Dennis in designing the BMR didn't care the driver was $20, he cared that it had amazing measurements, great out of band linearity, low distortion, and was the perfect size to bridge the smaller RAAL tweeter and the woofer.

If your sole motivating factor is buying speakers based on the BOM cost, you will be hard pressed to do better than internet direct sellers. Ascend Acoustics, Philharmonic Audio, and Salk all provide a very high BOM to sale price value. I am sure the BOM cost for Revels is far lower, but their execution is flawless, part of what you are paying for is their vast research and experience.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I saw on another forum that famous monitors costing thousands of dollars use outsourced tweeters that cost around 30$ and the woofers cost about the same , obviously I was shocked, but then I realized it was much more common than I thought with many companies.

Some of the best tweeters on the market cost about $30, even at retail prices. The same price in a woofer probably leaves a little to be desired, but as @617 points out, a lot can be done with a $30 woofer and good system design.

And this leads me to prefer companies that make the drivers in house.

I partly agree, but only in some cases. The market for OEM drivers is a very competitive one, and unless you have very specific requirements for a speaker (e.g. the coaxial drivers developed by KEF or Genelec), there seems little point in in-house development unless the goal is to reduce mass-scale production costs.

Additionally, it is very common for companies to spec their drivers and then outsource the production to a specialised driver manufacturer, sometimes designing the driver in collaboration with engineers from that manufacturer.

If a company is going to do its drivers in-house, they'd better have very competent engineers doing it and very good facilities in which to manufacturer it, because the OEM market is tough competition.

So I guess what I'm saying is that, there is no reason necessarily to prefer companies that do their drivers in-house.

 

[CDMC]

Same thing with paying a person $100+ to fix something that takes them 5 minutes. You aren't really paying them to fix it, you are paying for all of the time it took them to learn how to fix it in 5 minutes.

Many people forget this. I just paid a furniture maker $250 to knock down a gloss finish to satin on a table I got a steal on. It took him all of an hour and looks fabulous. I could have done it for $25 in 3-4 hours and it wouldn't have been nearly as good. I wasn't paying for his materials or an hourly rate, I was paying for his skill, experience, and knowledge. There is a great story that goes around sometimes that sums it up well:

"A giant ship’s engine failed. The ship’s owners tried one ‘professional’ after another but none of them could figure out how to fix the broken engine.

Then they brought in a man who had been fixing ships since he was young.
He carried a large bag of tools with him and when he arrived immediately went to work. He inspected the engine very carefully, top to bottom.

Two of the ship’s owners were there watching this man, hoping he would know what to do. After looking things over, the old man reached into his bag and pulled out a small hammer. He gently tapped something. Instantly, the engine lurched into life. He carefully put his hammer away and the engine was fixed!!!

A week later, the owners received an invoice from the old man for $10,000.

What?! the owners exclaimed. “He hardly did anything..!!!”.

So they wrote to the man; “Please send us an itemised invoice.”

The man sent an invoice that read:

Tapping with a hammer………………….. $2.00

Knowing where to tap…………………….. $9,998.00

Effort is important but experience and knowing where to direct that effort makes all the difference."

 

[Purité Audio]

That's why I would buy a product from a company like Genelec, they make the drivers in house and you know they'd still be here in 30 years.

Well no they don’t they buy them from Tymphany in China but they don’t advertise the fact, I don’t really understand their reticence because Tymphany make fine drivers.
Keith

 

[Pearljam5000]

So Genelec is lying?

 

[JohnYang1997]

Two things about it.
1, high end means niche product which means small volume which leads to large margin to survive.
2, Driver cost doesn't reflect performance nor the total cost. The finishing and the wood can cost many times more.
3, Silicon chips are made out of sand. It's about how much value you add to it.
4, If a market is not saturated, and you think you can do better for cheaper, feel free to undercut your opponents and earn tons of money.
5, we all know high end audio has lots of talking, making claims, and bs. Don't be surprised when you see something like this. Someone will buy.
6, People who buy over priced garbage are often very rich people. You don't need to think after them. You aren't forced to buy, so let them.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Well no they don’t they buy them from Tymphany in China but they don’t advertise the fact, I don’t really understand their reticence because Tymphany make fine drivers.
Keith

Keith do you know if their coaxials are also manufactured (obviously to Genelec's spec) by Tymphany?

+1 for the quality of Tymphany's drivers.

 

[FrantzM]

Many people forget this. I just paid a furniture maker $250 to knock down a gloss finish to satin on a table I got a steal on. It took him all of an hour and looks fabulous. I could have done it for $25 in 3-4 hours and it wouldn't have been nearly as good. I wasn't paying for his materials or an hourly rate, I was paying for his skill, experience, and knowledge. There is a great story that goes around sometimes that sums it up well:

"A giant ship’s engine failed. The ship’s owners tried one ‘professional’ after another but none of them could figure out how to fix the broken engine.

Then they brought in a man who had been fixing ships since he was young.
He carried a large bag of tools with him and when he arrived immediately went to work. He inspected the engine very carefully, top to bottom.

Two of the ship’s owners were there watching this man, hoping he would know what to do. After looking things over, the old man reached into his bag and pulled out a small hammer. He gently tapped something. Instantly, the engine lurched into life. He carefully put his hammer away and the engine was fixed!!!

A week later, the owners received an invoice from the old man for $10,000.

What?! the owners exclaimed. “He hardly did anything..!!!”.

So they wrote to the man; “Please send us an itemised invoice.”

The man sent an invoice that read:

Tapping with a hammer………………….. $2.00

Knowing where to tap…………………….. $9,998.00

Effort is important but experience and knowing where to direct that effort makes all the difference."

A LIKE wasn't enough!!... you made my DAY!!

Great Post!!!

 

[Purité Audio]

So Genelec is lying?

They state the fact on their own forum.
Keith

 

[Pearljam5000]

I agree with most of the comments but...
I guess what I felt was like paying for a Mercedes and finding out the car has Kia parts in it and a Kia engine in it.
I was expecting the drivers to be more expensive and more special in a $10k pair of studio monitors than mass produced (maybe somewhat custom made) tweeters.

 

[Purité Audio]

Keith do you know if their coaxials are also manufactured (obviously to Genelec's spec) by Tymphany?

+1 for the quality of Tymphany's drivers.

I don’t but I could probably ask a chap I know who designs Tymphany’s drivers.
Keith

 

[andreasmaaan]

I agree with most of the comments but...
I guess what I felt was like paying for a Mercedes and finding out the car has Kia parts in it and a Kia engine in it.
I was expecting the drivers to be more expensive and more special in a $10k pair of studio monitors than mass produced (maybe somewhat custom made) tweeters.

Out of curiosity, which monitors were they and which drivers do they use?

 

[FrantzM]

I agree with most of the comments but...
I guess what I felt was like paying for a Mercedes and finding out the car has Kia parts in it and a Kia engine in it.
I was expecting the drivers to be more expensive and more special in a $10k pair of studio monitors than mass produced (maybe somewhat custom made) tweeters.

Completely OT, a bit of a rant: I am a Mercedes owner ... A Kia is likely more reliable than any ICE Mercedes currently produced ... I will never buy another M-B car ...