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Class D: Better with Low Efficiency Speakers?

March Audio

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Do you think this axiom applies to tube amps?

My experience has been that, for a modern tube amp operating in ultralinear mode, the above axiom applies, but if I take the same amp and run it in triode mode, I can pass a blind test of triode vs UL with statistical significance (i.e. which mode is it operating under) even at low, level-matched volumes.

Sorry, I know this wasnt directed at me but I am sure you can find exceptions to any rule of thumb.

I would suggest that if ultra linear seems to sound similar to other amps then that is probably the way to go, its probably more neutral. Is triode providing a sound character? Mind you, if you like that sound character it doesnt matter.
 

svart-hvitt

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Tubes...

Is there any other area outside of audio where potent precision power is needed that uses tube technology?

Example: Does CERN use tubes?
 
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watchnerd

watchnerd

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Sorry, I know this wasnt directed at me but I am sure you can find exceptions to any rule of thumb.

I would suggest that if ultra linear seems to sound similar to other amps then that is probably the way to go, its probably more neutral. Is triode providing a sound character? Mind you, if you like that sound character it doesnt matter.

I find that triode is not neutral. It is colored and dynamically compressed. It adds sonic character that is additive to the original recording.

Would I use that mode when working on a mix? Helck no. Would I use that mode in playback? Sometimes, yes, depending on the material (vintage jazz or classical, classic rock, but not electronica), I can find it enjoyable.
 

March Audio

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Tubes...

Is there any other area outside of audio where potent precision power is needed that uses tube technology?

Example: Does CERN use tubes?

As pointed out there are applications, but in the audio world it can be just as much about an experience as it is about hi fidelity. Tubes can be very linear but there are limitations. Can they be pleasant to listen to? Sure. Having a glowing tube and record deck spinning away is a more aesthetic and tactile experience. Still, would I have them? Nope.
 
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amirm

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Do you think this axiom applies to tube amps?

My experience has been that, for a modern tube amp operating in ultralinear mode, the above axiom applies, but if I take the same amp and run it in triode mode, I can pass a blind test of triode vs UL with statistical significance (i.e. which mode is it operating under) even at low, level-matched volumes.
The tube amps I have tested in person easily get distorted. They simply don't have the power capacity for the type of listening I do. :)
 

March Audio

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As I haven't put the amp in my 3rd speaker yet (see the DIY section) would anyone be interested in seeing some load testing (abuse +measurements) of a Hypex NC252?

IMG_20170914_173720.jpg
 

RayDunzl

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The phone company decided to abuse my battery string on Grand Isle...

They bought something like 256 100W 50V light bulbs and mounted them on a pair of thick plywood sheets, all in parallel, for 25,600W and 512 amperes load, to test the 4000 ampere hour battery string till it fell below the specified volts to run the gear. Leave a few bulbs unscrewed, as spares, and to get the amperage to spec - 500A for eight hours, if I remember correctly.

It was simply an insane amount of light (and heat).

Sunlight is about 100W/sq foot (max), this was 400W/sq foot.
 

amirm

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As I haven't put the amp in my 3rd speaker yet (see the DIY section) would anyone be interested in seeing some load testing (abuse +measurements) of a Hypex NC252?
Of course! :)
 

March Audio

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Cool. Just ordered a couple of non inductive 2 ohm 100w resistors so I can do 4, 2 & 1 ohm purely resistive. I will see what caps and inductors I have in my box of crazy crap for more reactive loads.
 
D

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Slightly off topic but still Class D.

My experience with Hypex nCore's reflects a.wayne's experience, see lack of Timbre, my words would be Sterile, Dull sound lacking extension.

Moving on a couple of years installed Onkyo Class D amplifier with same speakers as used with nCores. Now quite happy with sound.

Onkyo is using below technology in their Class D amps including LPS in my amp. Is this what makes the difference compared to nCores or other Class D amps?

"
Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry (VLSC)
Conventional D/A conversion methods reduce digital pulse noise at the conversion stage but can’t remove it completely. Previously only found on Onkyo’s high-end components, VLSC (Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry)employs a unique D/A conversion circuit to overcome this problem. Data is converted between sampling points and these points are joined with analogue vectors in real-time to produce a smooth output wave form. The result - a virtually noiseless, smooth analogue signal based on the digital source."
 

RayDunzl

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March Audio

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Slightly off topic but still Class D.

My experience with Hypex nCore's reflects a.wayne's experience, see lack of Timbre, my words would be Sterile, Dull sound lacking extension.

Moving on a couple of years installed Onkyo Class D amplifier with same speakers as used with nCores. Now quite happy with sound.

Onkyo is using below technology in their Class D amps including LPS in my amp. Is this what makes the difference compared to nCores or other Class D amps?

"
Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry (VLSC)
Conventional D/A conversion methods reduce digital pulse noise at the conversion stage but can’t remove it completely. Previously only found on Onkyo’s high-end components, VLSC (Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry)employs a unique D/A conversion circuit to overcome this problem. Data is converted between sampling points and these points are joined with analogue vectors in real-time to produce a smooth output wave form. The result - a virtually noiseless, smooth analogue signal based on the digital source."


Aaahh, now this is why I asked the question about defining what people think timbre means. You have stated what I think a lot of people mean when they say poor timbre, ie sterile. I'm not sure that is strictly correct. That "sterile" effect could, for example, equally be caused by frequency response .

An analogy, LP to CD? does that invoke a similar response in comparative terms? My response is I find CD clean and neutral compared to vinyl. Equally I find class D clean and neutral.

Timbre is really more the harmonic content. One thing I am interested in is comparing the distortion characteristics of class D against linear. See which has more spuria, intermodulation and harmonics when under awkward loads.

BTW, I haven't looked at the VLSC at all, but the description you have supplied sounds like a complicated way of saying oversampling or interpolation.
 
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Frank Dernie

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Aaahh, now this is why I asked the question about defining what people think timbre means. You have stated what I think a lot of people mean when they timbre, ie sterile. I'm not sure that is strictly correct. That effect could, for example, equally be caused by frequency response.

An anology, LP to CD? does that invoke a similar response in comparative terms? My response is I find them clean and neutral.

Timbre is really the harmonic content. One thing I am interested in is comparing the distortion characteristics of class D against linear. See which has more spuria, intermodulation and harmonics when under awkward loads.

BTW, I haven't looked at the VLSC at all, but the description you have supplied sounds like a complicated way of saying oversampling or interpolation.
I agree, since the timbre of an instrument depends on the amplitude and distribution of harmonics anything with audible levels of harmonic distortion will change the timbre of instruments.
These additions may be preferred as a nicer sound by some, or be heard as richer timbre - but it isn't high fidelity.
 

svart-hvitt

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Is all (or most of) the talk about timbre really talk about legacy amplifiers that cannot reproduce the frequency curve without audible distortion?
 

Purité Audio

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It is because for years audiophiles have been sold the lie that valves are somehow 'better' than solid state , I have no problem with anyone using amything as long as they are aware why the sound is different.
Keith
 

svart-hvitt

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It is because for years audiophiles have been sold the lie that valves are somehow 'better' than solid state , I have no problem with anyone using amything as long as they are aware why the sound is different.
Keith

But I must admit, tubes look hot!
;)
 
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