Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[PenguinMusic]

lesson learned... differentiate in all replies between DAC chip and DAC device.

Hi,

Don't know if that is ironical or not...

But whatever the answer, I still think it may clear up things and be an argument...
Then again, from what I understand from your answers, it would be difficult to compare the chips themselves, unless they're built into the exact same scheme. Like I unsocket one chip and sockt in the other one to be able to compare them.
But I guess it's not like in computers where you can just change the CPU if they have the same socket

Regards.

 

[PenguinMusic]

Has he identified it as such? Has he ever pointed out audible differences from his listening tests?

Hum... I think that he stated there is that bump/hump for sure.
I will try to check if he was able to hear it...

But, it has been written here so many times that if the measures are the same, the sound is the same.
Your question means that the sound can be the same despite the fact that measures are different ?
Maybe there's a threshold where the measure can't be heard...

If so, my (serious) question : whatever the DAC, are we not talking about thresholds where it won't matter at all, even to super trained ears ?

 

[solderdude]

Hi,

Don't know if that is ironical or not...

But whatever the answer, I still think it may clear up things and be an argument...
Then again, from what I understand from your answers, it would be difficult to compare the chips themselves, unless they're built into the exact same scheme. Like I unsocket one chip and sockt in the other one to be able to compare them.
But I guess it's not like in computers where you can just change the CPU if they have the same socket

Regards.

Usually DAC chips are not pin compatible. Also you need to understand that not only the DAC chip but everything around it and the software/functions determine what the chip itself is told to do.

 

[solderdude]

Maybe there's a threshold where the measure can't be heard...

Not Maybe... it has been mentioned several times in this thread alone.

The IMD hump is real, can be measured and in some cases removed by selecting the proper value components.
The audibility of it has been questioned and not (yet) clearly shown in well exuted blind listening tests.

 

[Angsty]

Not all measured differences are audible and not all audible differences are measured. The latter portion is more likely to cause controversy. Remember that it took years to establish the relevancy of jitter to digital sound quality. Before the early 1990's, manufacturers simply did not measure it as a critical element.

1990 may sound like ancient history, but the field of digital audio is still relatively new as a science. We are still figuring out the most accurate ways to correlate what we hear to what we measure, and vice versa.

And, of course, just because it can be measured and it can be heard still does not always correlate to what is preferred (looking at you, Totaldac).

 

[SIY]

Not all measured differences are audible and not all audible differences are measured.

Can you give me one actual example of the latter?

 

[mansr]

Jitter audibility was being researched in the 1970s.

 

[solderdude]

Can you give me one actual example of the latter?

The 'missing signal' can't be measured because there is no measurement device for it.
It still has to be invented.
And when it does there will be full correlation between sighted subjective evaluations and that specific metric.
I know people told you this numerous times already....
It is time to discover that illusive signal that seems to pass through and is influenced by specific audiophool components.

 

[LTig]

The 'missing signal' can't be measured because there is no measurement device for it.
It still has to be invented.
And when it does there will be full correlation between sighted subjective evaluations and that specific metric.
I know people told you this numerous times already....
It is time to discover that illusive signal that seems to pass through and is influenced by specific audiophool components.

It need not be measured but counted, as simple as that. It's the number behind the $ sign.

 

[ahofer]

Would we agree, as a working hypothesis, that two analog signals in opposite phase that null out below some threshold would be audibly indistinguishable once put into your headphones/speakers?

 

[SIY]

Would we agree, as a working hypothesis, that two analog signals in opposite phase that null out below some threshold would be audibly indistinguishable once put into your headphones/speakers?

Sort of- it depends on the frequency decomposition of the null.

 

[ahofer]

Sort of- it depends on the frequency decomposition of the null.

So a curve, like an a-weighting?

 

[SIY]

So a curve, like an a-weighting?

A level dependent curve, which is also likely to be signal dependent because of things like masking.

 

[mansr]

I'm pretty sure we can formulate some simpler criteria for a threshold below which a difference is definitely not audible. As long as we can stay below that, it doesn't really matter if some larger differences would also be inaudible.

 

[1roger]

Do you think your failure to pay attention to conventions of capitalization and punctuation make you look intelligent?

the idea of good communication is to be understood by everyone.. thats it. capitalization and punctuations are almost irrelevant in comparison, particularly when there is only one sentence

 

[Robin L]

the idea of good communication is to be understood by everyone.. thats it. capitalization and punctuations are almost irrelevant in comparison, particularly when there is only one sentence

It still makes your extremely uninformed arguments look even weaker. And I'm not talking about just one sentence. Your online mode of communication looks like trolling.

 

[solderdude]

Yuo can eevn put ltetres in rnaodm odrer and cnvoey a mssegae

 

[Robin L]

Yuo can eevn put ltetres in rnaodm odrer and cnvoey a mssegae

MY EYES!!!!! MY EYES!!!!!

 

[Jimbob54]

the idea of good communication is to be understood by everyone.. thats it. capitalization and punctuations are almost irrelevant in comparison, particularly when there is only one sentence

Just because it is understandable does not make it easy or pleasant to read. Oddly, you chose to make your badly punctuated and capitalised point about punctuation and capitalisation being almost irrelevant in one sentence in .....two!

 

[Julf]

Remember that it took years to establish the relevancy of jitter to digital sound quality.

Before the early 1990's, manufacturers simply did not measure it as a critical element.

1990 may sound like ancient history, but the field of digital audio is still relatively new as a science.

False, false and false.