Hemicrusher
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Have you ever listened to the DT770?
No, but I am setting up a rig in the living room and was looking at giving them a try.
Have you ever listened to the DT770?
Why?Harman is over-rated, IMO.
Headphone manufacturers have increasingly sought to replicate it so people have latched on to the idea that it is the ideal. It is not. It is a preference, not an absolute. For my tastes it is too dark as evidenced on the K371 and MOONDROP Starfield.Why?
First off, just because a headphone is explicitly attempting to match the Harman target closely doesn't mean it is particularly superior at such. I notice your setup includes the DT770. Well, despite being made many years before the establishment of the Harman target, the stock DT770 actually is pretty close to the Harman target- only 1db farther away from matching the target than the K371.Headphone manufacturers have increasingly sought to replicate it so people have latched on to the idea that it is the ideal. It is not. It is a preference, not an absolute. For my tastes it is too dark as evidenced on the K371 and MOONDROP Starfield.
Are they? I see very different stock responses of both:First off, just because a headphone is explicitly attempting to match the Harman target closely doesn't mean it is particularly superior at such. I notice your setup includes the DT770. Well, despite being made many years before the establishment of the Harman target, the stock DT770 actually is pretty close to the Harman target- only 1db farther away from matching the target than the K371.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/npqrz9dqdda292x/Beyerdynamic DT770 (new earpads).pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ftqm1c13xjcqgv/AKG K371.pdf?dl=0
You are getting away from my point. That point is that now that people know and hear about Harman, specially from manufacturers who tout it, people think it is the ideal. It is not.First off, just because a headphone is explicitly attempting to match the Harman target closely doesn't mean it is particularly superior at such. I notice your setup includes the DT770. Well, despite being made many years before the establishment of the Harman target, the stock DT770 actually is pretty close to the Harman target- only 1db farther away from matching the target than the K371.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/npqrz9dqdda292x/Beyerdynamic DT770 (new earpads).pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ftqm1c13xjcqgv/AKG K371.pdf?dl=0
So, hypothetically, if you say you you prefer the sound of the DT770 to the K371 because you don't like the sound of the Harman target, you're being disingenuous.
Secondly, it's part preference, part absolute. Everyone's ears are shaped differently and will respond differently. However, more of it is objective than not. As @solderdude pointed out, bass preference varies quite a bit: This is especially pertinent in your case since you don't like how "dark" the target sounds.
However, no other part of the spectrum varies as greatly as that in preference. So, I recommend trying out EQ-ing to the target again as a starting point, and using smooth low-pass filters to dial it in to your liking.
They look very different. However, that's not what is relevant in my using them as an example. The difference in deviation from the Harman target between them is only 1dB. More importantly, the difference in preference rating is only 5. With this data in mind, it isn't sensible to say you differ the K371 to the DT770 because the K371 is closer to the Harman target. For, both headphones are virtually just as close to it.Are they? I see very different stock responses of both:
View attachment 63876 vs. View attachment 63878
>You are getting away from my point. That point is that now that people know and hear about Harman, specially from manufacturers who tout it, people think it is the ideal. It is not.You are getting away from my point. That point is that now that people know and hear about Harman, specially from manufacturers who tout it, people think it is the ideal. It is not.
Two, the DT770 has several versions. DT770 I believe was closer to Diffuse Field than to a target that did not exist when it was first made. Finally and crucially, a cursory listen reveals that it is brighter, sparklier than the K371 and MOONDROP Starfield which are rather darker. I am not being disingenuous. I am telling you the following:
1. Harman is now treated with reverance as gospel. It ain't. It is one of several targets.
2. To my ears the DT770 sounds better and brighter than the K371, whatever targets they both are.
3. If K371 and Starfield are Harman, then Harman is too dark for my tastes. The DT770, however, is not dark or veiled.
And please, don't make unsolicited suggestions about EQing. K371 is on the sale block. Heck, most all of my IEMs at a fraction of the cost have a more enjoyable sound. DT770 Pro 250 Ohm remains a keeper eight years on.
Nice graph.K371 vs DT770 Pro (250)
It is obvious @Asylum Seeker loves a +5dB treble peak and the bass a bit dis-attached (see dip at 200Hz)
A matter of preference not accuracy.
Nothing wrong with preference.
It's all preference Including Harman target, you want accuracy that would be totally flat to 0 dB.Nice graph.
That coincides with my point that his distaste for the K371 isn't indicative of a distaste for the Harman target, since the DT770 is just as close to matching the target as the K371. So, as you said, it's a matter of preference, not accuracy.
No, flat is not accurate when it comes to headphones. This is primarily due to how certain parts of your ears change the sound when the transducers are right outside of them.It's all preference Including Harman target, you want accuracy that would be totally flat to 0 dB.
I don't want flat; I want flat bass which is tight and fast while going as low as possible, a 1 dB mids boost & a bit of the sparkle in highs but not to much nor going to much high. Call that a preference.
I am 40 and for me Harman curve is a garbage, around 3 bB boost in highs is enough for my ears, everything above that is bright.No, flat is not accurate when it comes to headphones. This is primarily due to how certain parts of your ears change the sound when the transducers are right outside of them.
The Harman target attempts to make headphones sound most like speakers possessing a flat frequency response in a treated room.
This is why virtually no headphones, let alone good ones, have flat frequency response graphs. Speakers not tuned flat sound like garbage- this has been known for decades. However, what hasn't been as concrete for as long is how to make headphones sound like flat speakers. Such is what all the frequency response targets in good faith attempt to accomplish.
Well, my goal wasn't to sell you the Harman target as something for you to tune to precisely. Rather, to point out that flat is not a faithful tuning for headphones.I am 40 and for me Harman curve is a garbage, around 3 bB boost in highs is enough for my ears, everything above that is bright.
They not only look very different but without EQ they also sound very different.They look very different. However, that's not what is relevant in my using them as an example. The difference in deviation from the Harman target between them is only 1dB. More importantly, the difference in preference rating is only 5. With this data in mind, it isn't sensible to say you differ the K371 to the DT770 because the K371 is closer to the Harman target. For, both headphones are virtually just as close to it.
This is primarily due to how certain parts of your ears change the sound when the transducers are right outside of them.
Anything which will cross over mids is garbage, mids account for 60% of information in audio and only reason to want some boost in highs in my case is my age.Well, my goal wasn't to sell you the Harman target as something for you to tune to precisely. Rather, to point out that flat is not a faithful tuning for headphones.
Your ears are your ears- what makes headphones sound like flat speakers to them is different than others. However, the Harman target is a good baseline since it sounds close to flat speakers to most people in testing. Harman themselves pointed out how 3k-5khz and especially 0-200hz are more variable in preference than any other region on the spectrum. So, it can often be fruitful to use the target as a starting point and subsequently dial it to your liking with high-pass and low-pass filters.