Hypex nCore vs Class A amps

[Thomas savage]

Ok I get it, if I have anything further to contribute have some facts to back them up. I don’t want to have arguments or challenges but would like to further expand and educate myself. I’m sorry if I offended anyone here.

You've not offended anyone, it's nothing personal. One of the reasons members come here is to get away from the ' my ears said it was true ' discussion that ultimately can't really go anywhere.

When people then come here and start with that our members can get cranky , they would see it as a invasion of sorts.

Hopefully we can get past that and learn together.

 

[Audio89]

You've not offended anyone, it's nothing personal. One of the reasons members come here is to get away from the ' my ears said it was true ' discussion that ultimately can't really go anywhere.

When people then come here and start with that our members can get cranky , they would see it as a invasion of sorts.

Hopefully we can get past that and learn together.

I would really like that, thank you for the response

 

[Kvalsvoll]

I am very curious. Do you have a description of the Buurion and Guurion somewhere? What speakers are you using?
However, what I see looks nice.

They use the Hypex nCore modules, specifications and papers are available from the Hypex web site. There are several manufacturers using those modules now, and some of those products have been measured and tested here on ASR, you can look up the measurements for those, the Buurion and the Guurion is equal to those in technical performance.

My own measurements matches those I have seen published here on ASR, so really no point in posting lots of graphs and numbers, when someone else already did an excellent job at that.

The difference between module types is output power, all other technical performance parameters are quite similar. For finished amplifiers, wiring and placement of wires and modules can affect performance - mainly noise, but a reasonably competent design will have exactly the same performance. My designs have generously dimensioned cooling, so the run quite cold, approx 30 degrees on the heatsink close to output devices.

I design loudspeaker systems, and have used different speakers on those amplifiers. Since we now have good amplifiers that can easily drive any reasonable load, I do not need to consider speaker load as a parameter that could affect sound quality, which of course makes it easier to focus on other things that really matters.

If you want to try out these amplifiers yourself, I recommend looking at some of the offerings provided from manufacturers from all over world. They are also very reasonably priced.

 

[Julf]

When people then come here and start with that our members can get cranky , they would see it as a invasion of sorts.

Indeed. Guilty as charged. To my defense, I have been dealing with the results of people torching mobile towers because they "know" that the radiation from 5G mobile makes people vulnerable to (or causes) coronavirus infection. That makes me extra irritable when someone who admits they don't actually know what they are talking about start spewing claims and imply they know better than "engineers that are over educated, because if it’s not written in a book than it just can’t be".

Will try to back down and let @Audio89 show that he can have an open mind.

 

[Willem]

So lets be nice but clear to the guy. He has some ill founded ideas but is willing to learn. So let us teach him. And nicely but still clearly.

 

[Audio89]

Indeed. Guilty as charged. To my defense, I have been dealing with the results of people torching mobile towers because they "know" that the radiation from 5G mobile makes people vulnerable to (or causes) coronavirus infection. That makes me extra irritable when someone who admits they don't actually know what they are talking about start spewing claims and imply they know better than "engineers that are over educated, because if it’s not written in a book than it just can’t be".

Will try to back down and let @Audio89 show that he can have an open mind.

I came in hot Julf and definitely deserved it. One thing for sure is I like to learn and surround myself with smart people. Again I’m sorry for my approach and challenging without evidence. Hopefully I can read through some of your posts and learn something.

 

[BDWoody]

Ok I get it, if I have anything further to contribute have some facts to back them up. I don’t want to have arguments or challenges but would like to further expand and educate myself. I’m sorry if I offended anyone here

No one is offended, but your arguments are the very ones that the audio industry relies on to sell imagination, and what there is a strong distaste for. So, a room full of people or the wife in the kitchen or anyone else who doesn't eliminate bias through a controlled subjective process add nothing useful.

There is a reliance on arguments that challenge fundamental physics, and a little knowledge goes a very long way.

You will soon stop worrying about solder joints, speaker cables, USB cables, Ethernet switches, DAC's, and pretty much anything else that doesn't have moving parts.

There is nothing hidden in the measurements...just in all the flowery words used by the audio press.

Keep at it...you are only responding to having your beliefs challenged by people very good at it...

 

[Kvalsvoll]

Wow looks nice

Yes, they do. And that is quite important, because it affects how we perceive the amplifier as an object, regardless of how it sounds.

 

[mocenigo]

It’s a direct connection from copper to copper, or copper to silver.

Proper soldering is also direct connection from copper to copper, or copper to silver. The solder just keeps everything together and prevents oxidation. This presumes that soldering was properly done.

And even otherwise, what should a few microns of conduction through tin do to the signal?

 

[Audio89]

No one is offended, but your arguments are the very ones that the audio industry relies on to sell imagination, and what there is a strong distaste for. So, a room full of people or the wife in the kitchen or anyone else who doesn't eliminate bias through a controlled subjective process add nothing useful.

There is a reliance on arguments that challenge fundamental physics, and a little knowledge goes a very long way.

You will soon stop worrying about solder joints, speaker cables, USB cables, Ethernet switches, DAC's, and pretty much anything else that doesn't have moving parts.

There is nothing hidden in the measurements...just in all the flowery words used by the audio press.

Keep at it...you are only responding to having your beliefs challenged by people very good at it...

Thank you for your reply, I have much to read on this site and eager learn. I also have some beliefs to change .

 

[mocenigo]

For example, what sets this site apart, other than the members, is that Amir uses a API 555 analyzer. This is a $28,000 piece of lab grade equipment that can measure electrical properties (distortion/noise, etc) far, far below the threshold of hearing. All his testing is based on this. Most audio manufacturers don't even use this (becomes obvious).
Intrigued a little? Read the site.

Out of curiosity. What's the evidence that this $28,000 piece of lab grade equipment can measure electrical properties (distortion/noise, etc) far, far below the threshold of hearing?

 

[Julf]

I came in hot Julf and definitely deserved it. One thing for sure is I like to learn and surround myself with smart people. Again I’m sorry for my approach and challenging without evidence. Hopefully I can read through some of your posts and learn something.

Appreciated - and apologies for jumping down on you so hard - as I explained, I have had a difficult day caused by people who spread misinformation, so I wasn't as patient and understanding as I should have been.

 

[BDWoody]

Out of curiosity. What's the evidence that this $28,000 piece of lab grade equipment can measure electrical properties (distortion/noise, etc) far, far below the threshold of hearing?

Credit to the lovely and talented @RayDunzl

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-shoutometer.2555/#post-73214

 

[Audio89]

Proper soldering is also direct connection from copper to copper, or copper to silver. The solder just keeps everything together and prevents oxidation. This presumes that soldering was properly done.

And even otherwise, what should a few microns of conduction through tin do to the signal?

It’s probably all in what I perceived to sound different and in actuality was not.

 

[Julf]

Out of curiosity. What's the evidence that this $28,000 piece of lab grade equipment can measure electrical properties (distortion/noise, etc) far, far below the threshold of hearing?

Basically endless number of cases where the gear shows an electrical difference, but nobody can tell a difference in a proper, controlled double-blind listening test.

As to listening tests, this is one way the professionals do it: ITU BS.1116: Methods for the subjective assessment of small impairments in audio systems

 

[mocenigo]

Appreciated - and apologies for jumping down on you so hard - as I explained, I have had a difficult day caused by people who spread misinformation, so I wasn't as patient and understanding as I should have been.

Good, it is nice you are understanding each other.

This said, the impedance of, say a 2mmq 5 meter copper cable is around 42 mOhm, and a 5mmq, 2.5 meter cable about 8mOhm. This for DC, for AC values can be different. However, this is additional impedance seen by the amplifier on top of the speakers' impedance. Therefore the amplifier will behave differently, esp if the impedance varies with the frequency.

Therefore we have at least ONE of the following effects:
1) relative attenuation, which can influence the listener and give the impression a different sound, in fact a different cable will make the rest of the system sound subjectively different.
2) some equalisation which, if if reaches 0.1Db, will actually make the rest of the system sound differently.

This means that there might be subjective sound differences that could even be traced back to measurable properties. The (scientifically) unwashed audiophile may believe that the "cable sounds" where, in fact, the reality is more complex, but, TBH, this is one reason I try to use speaker cables with a large cross section, as short as possible, and with a geometry that minimises capacitance and inductance (like the wreathed "Kimber-like" cables from china), but I do not care about the ultra-high levels of purity. Just to say safe, and I actually never waste a lot of money in cables.

 

[Audio89]

Appreciated - and apologies for jumping down on you so hard - as I explained, I have had a difficult day caused by people who spread misinformation, so I wasn't as patient and understanding as I should have been.

That’s ok I understand, I’m sure it gets aggravating.

 

[mocenigo]

Than

Basically endless number of cases where the gear shows an electrical difference, but nobody can tell a difference in a proper, controlled double-blind listening test.

As to listening tests, this is one way the professionals do it: ITU BS.1116: Methods for the subjective assessment of small impairments in audio systems

Thank you. Will read. To say all the truth, I tend to accept without much trouble that there are endless many cases where the gear shows an electrical difference, but nobody can tell a difference in a proper, controlled double-blind listening test. However, I am also quite sure that some testing is missing (and re-reading what Bruno Putzeys wrote answering here and on computer audiophile, there are tests not done here that may be critical – the same tests I was derided by Alan for suggesting them. I am now 100% sure Putzeys did them).

 

[mocenigo]

It’s probably all in what I perceived to sound different and in actuality was not.

You know, a lot of people talk about "dangerous" interfaces between materials. Now look inside any amplifier or DAC. Maybe even try to do some DIY. There are DOZENS of soldered connections. ON THE SIGNAL PATH. And I am supposed to believe that removing ONE such connection and replacing it with a properly welded (!!!) or cold welded (!!!) one, maybe not even on the signal path but on the power cord (!!!!!) should make a significant difference?

Just starting to DIY stuff made me realise how much of audiophile beliefs are fluff.

 

[teched58]

Well for one I’m not an electrical engineer and I’m unsure why you are trying to put me on the spot like I ran over your mailbox but I’m not going to back down. From what I’ve noticed through my own testing “and it just could be me hearing things” I noticed a better bass response on a speaker cable I was experimenting with when connected without solder. My wife was also listening and she noticed as well. BTW we can go round and round with your question why they use solder in high frequency circuits and there’s no problem. Why do different interconnect cables sound different? Why do different speaker cables sound different?

Audio89, there is a whole site that's specifically dedicated to people who think like this [speaker cables sound different, etc.] and, like you, don't have any formal knowledge of electronics but ''know what they hear'' and don't have to take any guff from book-learnin' engineers with their Ohm's Law and their fancy graphs which can be tough understand sometimes even by important editors in the field [especially figuring out the inverse of 10 to the -6].

I am pleasantly surprised at your apparent eagerness to learn and engage on this forum. But do know that, if/when you reach the point where you say to yourself, ''I tried but everyone here is just so mean, and heck, it's just a hobby,'' that there is a place filled with like-minded folk who will welcome you.

I would provide the URL of said site, but I am new to ASR and I don't want to run afoul of any policies. Also, as they used to say on The Prisoner, that would be telling.