UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Switch Review

[jtwrace]

Naahhhh .... that's not going to happen. Their "beef" is with UpTone

Naahhhh .... just send it in and I'm sure @amirm will be happy to test it. It would be great to test one of them!

 

[Thomas savage]

Naahhhh .... that's not going to happen. Their "beef" is with UpTone

Rubbish, if someone sends it into Amirm he will test it

Would you like to buy one and drop ship it?

 

[PierreV]

Time to play devil's advocate for a moment and risk blowback from the MRA crowd here:

What's the difference between what Matrix Audio and Uptone Audio are really doing?

By many people's point of view here, the $3,000 Matrix DAC with the sub-human noise floor should be indistinguishable from the $100 one that still has a noise floor well below audibility. Is the Matrix DAC "snake oil" since it provides the same function as the $100 Topping DAC?

Uptone Audio has built a network switch to spec with what they feel are superior quality parts to an off the shelf switch, and measurements show it to function exactly the same as the cheapo. If the low noise floor measurements Amir gushes over on his lab equipment don't amount to a hill of beans in actual listening, why is one considered "snake oil" and the other the talk of the town around here?

That's a good question but I think it has a clear answer.

The Matrix DAC claims to solve a certain problem (the DA conversion) at a certain performance level, which it delivers. Whether one needs that level of performance or not is up to the buyer to decide (my personal opinion is it is overkill) and there is no deception involved. The buyer is not misled. At worst, the customer didn't do his homework, overestimates his hearing abilities or is informed and actually wanted the more expensive device for secondary benefits.

The EtherRegen claims to solve non-existent problems. This is so bad that even its marketing material can't precisely define which problem it solves. The buyer is misled from start to end.

 

[Xulonn]

Is the Matrix DAC "snake oil" since it provides the same function as the $100 Topping DAC?

The Matrix DAC is no more "snake oil" vs a $100 Topping DAC than an equivalent Ferrari is vs a 2020 mid-engine Corvette. Both provide a similar level of performance, but one costs much more. I use the term "snake oil" to identify audio products that don't provide the benefits claimed - at least in the physical world.

I doubt that the new $1600 Teac 70wpc Hypex-based AP-505 power (picture below) would sound any different in my system than my 25 y/o Classé Model Seventy Amplifier with the same power rating that I purchased used for $400. But I still might buy the Teac if money was no object. Although I consider the Teac to be over-priced for what it delivers, I do not consider it to be snake-oil.

 

[jkerr]

I dont understand why not go for making a switch that looks more atractive, It goes with your audio stuff. Fancy case. Put the connectors in the back with dimable front conection power leads in it. This looks like sombody took a usb enclosur and stuck a switch in it. Looks cheasy cheap. Seams like there would be as much of a market for that than questionable audio gains.

 

[Jinjuku]

John S specifically said the update had nothing to do with SQ, and was done for technical reasons not related to SQ. He did not claim it changed SQ, he said it didn't.

Other owners reported SQ differences however. Because that didn't fit Alex's narrative he said people were imagining it and that they couldn't possibly remember what v1 firmware devices sounded like.

 

[pozz]

Other owners reported SQ differences however. Because that didn't fit Alex's narrative he said people were imagining it and that they couldn't possibly remember what v1 firmware devices sounded like.

That's what he meant? He wrote it in such a confusing way.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Other owners reported SQ differences however. Because that didn't fit Alex's narrative he said people were imagining it and that they couldn't possibly remember what v1 firmware devices sounded like.

Yes, you couldn't make it up.
One thing that has no mechanism by which the SQ could change does change it, another doesn't.
Why? because I say so

 

[jtwrace]

Other owners reported SQ differences however. Because that didn't fit Alex's narrative he said people were imagining it and that they couldn't possibly remember what v1 firmware devices sounded like.

John S did say he heard them. Did you see my post earlier with his post?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rregen-switch-review.10232/page-8#post-280162

 

[amirm]

Naahhhh .... that's not going to happen. Their "beef" is with UpTone

That sounds like what you would do, not what I do. I can't afford to have a beef with anyone. Readers of the site expect to see objective/reliable data from me and that is what I do. To wit, I have praised Schiit products when they perform and you could have said the same thing about them.

Now, all else is not equal. Alex and John are super active on social media so are flag bearer of these devices. For that reason, providing measurement data for their devices carries more weight and usefulness for the general community as opposed to testing more obscure products without gorilla marketing behind them.

And because of popularity of UpTone devices, probability of their devices getting to me is higher than others.

All this said, as others have mentioned, I test what comes to me. This device did and so here we are. The others have not.

 

[KxDx]

The Matrix DAC is no more "snake oil" vs a $100 Topping DAC than an equivalent Ferrari is vs a 2020 mid-engine Corvette. Both provide a similar level of performance, but one costs much more. I use the term "snake oil" to identify audio products that don't provide the benefits claimed - at least in the physical world.

I doubt that the new $1600 Teac 70wpc Hypex-based AP-505 power (picture below) would sound any different in my system than my 25 y/o Classé Model Seventy Amplifier with the same power rating that I purchased used for $400. But I still might buy the Teac if money was no object. Although I consider the Teac to be over-priced for what it delivers, I do not consider it to be snake-oil.

View attachment 41506

I bought an old-stock BNIB UD-501 for $400 last month. Tell you what, the look and feel of those 500-series is impeccable.

But I returned it, because the used UD-H01 I could get for $250 less had identical specs, just had fewer features (none of which I used anyway) and wasn't as sexy. It was very hard to overcome shallowness... and I still might get a black H01 because silver just won't seem to grow on me. But I hear absolutely no difference.

 

[Darkweb]

But there's no superior engineering in the uptone product, it's in fact worse engineering as you can achieve the same performance for a lot less BOM.

The DAC on the other hand has verifiable performance advantages , you can argue they are academic but academic or not they are real.

Price , well value is in the eye of the beholder.

Those “performance advantages” only apply on the test bench though. They are as equally useless in practice as UpTone switch vs Netgear.

And these minuscule “performance advantages” are enough to exalt one company here and throw another in the garbage can.

For those upset with the marketing of Uptone, I’ll bet you my bank account that the folks at Matrix would tell you their top range DAC sounds better than their budget range despite both measuring below the audibility range for distortion, etc.

 

[Jinjuku]

As far as charging in advance - Uptone doesn't take orders and charge before they have the parts available to build the units, or are certain they are on the way. They don't take your money on speculation that they will be building several months in advance.

Best practice is charging the card when product ships. It is what it is.

 

[amirm]

Here's a Dutch audio site and measured and did blind listening tests to a set of "audiophile switches". Say measurements showed no real differences, but listening did. Comments?

(a)
https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.alpha-audio.nl/achtergrond/meten-aan-een-audiofiele-switch-deel-2/

(b)
https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.alpha-audio.nl/review/zeven-switches-voor-streaming-audio-getest-blind/

I took a look. There are some issues with the measurements that I won't get into as their conclusion was correct.

On blind test, unfortunately there is no conclusion you can draw from any of it. Imagine if you said you could predict which way a coin toss will go. You predict head, I flip the coin and get head. Do I conclude that you can predict the coin flip? Of course not. You had 50% chance of being right by guessing. The standard in statistical analysis is to rule out 95% probability of chance. That would require 10 flips and you predicting 8 of them correctly. You could still be guessing but at least we have high confidence that likely are not.

Here, the test is more complicated. A number of switches were tested with a number of different test tracks. Somehow we need to verify if preference for certain switch rises up above level of chance per above. We could also do the same with respect to what music was played (these are the "variables" in statistics parlance). This type of analysis is called Anova or analysis of variances invented by Fisher. Every blind test published formally has this type of analysis. Without it, the results cannot be trusted any more than we can trust the first two coin flip guesses from you.

We also need to find testers who were clearly randomly guessing and as such, diluting the value of the rest of the tests. It may turn out that most of them in which case, there would be nothing left to rely on! This is called a "t-test"

I can perform such an analysis but we need the data. They seem to be in the graphs but I don't have the time to sit there and type them in. If someone wants to do that, we can perform the analysis. Here is what the analysis looks like (from a paper on a lossy codec):

We strive to keep P-level less than 0.05.

 

[amirm]

Those “performance advantages” only apply on the test bench though.

That is a guess not backed by listening tests. There are gray shades of audibility of distortion/noise until you reach a high level (-116 dB). Below that, the possibility may be close to zero, but is not zero.

In the case of UpTone Regen, measurements show that the device is provably inaudible. I analyzed it to some 27 bits (-160 dB) with respect to distortion products. We cannot build a DAC with more than 21 bits today so no way a device like this can make an audible difference electrically let alone perceptually.

In summary, you can replace the UpTone Regen with just a patch cable and be just as well with zero probability of losing fidelity. For the DAC, if it dips below -116 dB in noise/distortion, you cannot make that assertion. How much value there is in a DAC to push that probability to zero is your judgement to make.

 

[anmpr1]

Those “performance advantages” only apply on the test bench though. They are as equally useless in practice as UpTone switch vs Netgear. And these minuscule “performance advantages” are enough to exalt one company here and throw another in the garbage can.

I get the idea that you are just hassling ASR, and trying to sully the owner's important work as a consumer advocate. As others have stated, when you buy a Matrix, or Benchmark, you are buying engineering excellence. You are buying a well designed product that does what it says it will do. If you don't want that, or need it, you can buy something less, for less money.

As far as 'throwing the company in a garbage can'? Are you really serious? The only thing that is being thrown in the garbage is a garbage product that doesn't do what it is marketed for. It is a bogus product created by charlatans preying on the neurotic and naive. And you see no difference between that and a company like Matrix or Benchmark? You really don't see it? The fact that you evidently don't understand the difference between excellent engineering and a snake oil peddler is frankly quite remarkable.

 

[Darkweb]

That is a guess not backed by listening tests. There are gray shades of audibility of distortion/noise until you reach a high level (-116 dB). Below that, the possibility may be close to zero, but is not zero.

In the case of UpTone Regen, measurements show that the device is provably inaudible. I analyzed it to some 27 bits (-160 dB) with respect to distortion products. We cannot build a DAC with more than 21 bits today so no way a device like this can make an audible difference electrically let alone perceptually.

In summary, you can replace the UpTone Regen with just a patch cable and be just as well with zero probability of losing fidelity. For the DAC, if it dips below -116 dB in noise/distortion, you cannot make that assertion. How much value there is in a DAC to push that probability to zero is your judgement to make.

You’re making my point for me. That razor thin line of audibility is pretty shaky ground to exalt one company and send the other to the proverbial guillotine.

 

[amirm]

You’re making my point for me. That razor thin line of audibility is pretty shaky ground to exalt one company and send the other to the proverbial guillotine.

In a world where people rip you off left and right, one is prompted to exalt a company that strives for excellence and delivers it.

The other company, tells you to remove a wire and replace it with a product that doesn't look remotely as nice, and runs too hot for long term reliability. They then try to program you to think all magical improvements in audio are waiting for you. For this pleasure, they charge you near the price of the top of the line DACs.

Sitting in my seat, you give both the same award?

 

[Xulonn]

Definitely has more than its fair share of magic crystal purveyors as a result.

LOL, Alan. I will be ordering a batch of (soft and fragile) fluorite crystals from China soon, and in a few weeks I will be a "purveyor of crystals." But the customers will need to provide any magic if that is what they desire. Although this post might seem to be off-topic in this thread, it is actually another area where charlatans - as well as true believers - sell things proclaiming them to have magical properties. The picture below is a typical fluorite "wand." (Another allusion to "magic"?)

At 78 y/o I am suffering from a bit of nerve degeneration according to my neurologist, and have stopped woodturning - my hobby for the past 15 years. I sometimes need a cane to walk, and am losing some sensitivity in the fingers of my left hand. I have been selling my turnings at the local weekly international market for the past seven years, but will in the future sell mineral crystals - either standalone, or combined with wood to make artistic sculptures. Some of my crystals will be cut, shaped and polished as "wands", and others will be natural shapes. And pricing will be for artistic value and natural beauty - not for any imagined magical properties.

I play to sell my crystals and art under the name "Cuevas de Cristal" (Crystal Caves). Think of the below crystal in a cave, an artistic expression hand-carved from cocobolo (rosewood) or other dark tropical hardwood - possibly with the crystal(s) illuminated with LED lighting. It will be interesting to see how many of my future customers will be buying the art simply for its beauty, and how many for the "magical properties" of the crystals.

But as a seller, I will not hype them or claim that they are anything more than natural manifestations of the earth and its physical geological processes. That being said, I already have several local women waiting to see them and buy them for their "magical properties" and if that's how they ineract with my crystals, that is perfectly o.k with me. I am simply fascinated by their beauty, and selling them will allow me to posess, admire, and touch many of the variations of mineral crystals.

My issue with "magical properties" is not with people who simply believe in such "magic" related to audio, but rather those who market and sell products for outrageous prices by making claims that they cannot support with verifiable evidence.

 

[Thomas savage]

You’re making my point for me. That razor thin line of audibility is pretty shaky ground to exalt one company and send the other to the proverbial guillotine.

Not really , your ' point ' has been addressed but you have chosen to just repeat it over and over rather than expand on your argument.

You had the nugget of a good position, maybe I will play devils advocate next time ha ha

You get a c-

Tip , have a read of the forum there's some honest introspection from certain quarters that would enhance your argument if you were to use it.