Geshelli Archel2 Headphone AMP Review: another champ?

[JohnYang1997]

To the purpose of this forum. It's more like finding cheap good performing products that are actually good. And reviews based on objective measurements rather than subjective bullshit. Also allow us to know that we don't need that much money to get sota performance. And to avoid high price garbage that don't perform. This is a really good place.

 

[Veri]

To the purpose of this forum. It's more like finding cheap good performing products that are actually good. And reviews based on objective measurements rather than subjective bullshit. Also allow us to know that we don't need that much money to get sota performance. And to avoid high price garbage that don't perform. This is a really good place.

Fully agree!

And, looking forward to buying your amp one day, @JohnYang1997

 

[boXem]

@JohnYang1997 I am quite surprised that your studies are not also about requirements management, timing, cost, industrialization, ...

Your amplifier seems to have pretty impressive performance. Would you mind sharing measurements in a specific thread? I believe a lot of people would be interested.

 

[JohnYang1997]

@JohnYang1997 I am quite surprised that your studies are not also about requirements management, timing, cost, industrialization, ...

Your amplifier seems to have pretty impressive performance. Would you mind sharing measurements in a specific thread? I believe a lot of people would be interested.

Not now. You will know when dust settled.

On the first question. I don't quite sure what you exactly meant. On my amplifier it's all from my own money. And the design is cost efficient. If you were talking about thesis, we can't make the ic design to fabrication. If it's hardware based we can make a final solid design, if it's IC design then it will be simulation only.

 

[boXem]

Not now. You will know when dust settled.

On the first question. I don't quite sure what you exactly meant. On my amplifier it's all from my own money. And the design is cost efficient. If you were talking about thesis, we can't make the ic design to fabrication. If it's hardware based we can make a final solid design, if it's IC design then it will be simulation only.

Well on the first question, in a slightly simplified real world, the difference between a good and bad engineer is not the ability to shave 0.5 dB, it's the ability to deliver a product fulfilling the requirements (including manufacturability) within a given time and budget.
Usually, both time and budget are not enough to do better than the requirements. And progress is usually not seen as stricter technical requirements (unless market requests it), but as shorter time and budget and easier manufacturability. Not to mention meetings, presentations, reviews, reporting, ...
So please don't be too harsh with with your future peers, I am sure they do the best they can with what they are given.

 

[Veri]

So please don't be too harsh with with your future peers, I am sure they do the best they can with what they are given.

I think JohnYang is mostly frustrated with the market. Many sharletans, before ASR products were almost everywhere recommended on subjective opinions alone, whether they were engineered properly or a disastrous mess, was hard to discern scouring the internet. I think his tone is not meant to be harsh, just healthy criticism.

Lots of competition now with THX, Atom, Archel and upcoming designs. All the better for us

 

[boXem]

I think JohnYang is mostly frustrated with the market. Many sharletans, before ASR products were almost everywhere recommended on subjective opinions alone, whether they were engineered properly or a disastrous mess, was hard to discern scouring the internet. I think his tone is not meant to be harsh, just healthy criticism.

Seems my point was not clear.
Pointing engineering as the sole source of what you call a disastrous mess is showing a misunderstanding on how a product is designed.
I will take as example something that saw many people shocked on the forum: an crappy output transformer was used because the properly working one was "too expensive".
Who is at fault? The incompetent engineer? The finance guy who targeted a low cost BOM? The project manager who didn't give enough time to shave $ on other components to keep the good transformers? The marketing who gave crappy/no requirements that would anyhow be filled by whatever crap? Or a bit of all these people?
Obviously not all engineers are good, but most of the time, a crappy product is the outcome of a crappy company, not of a crappy engineer.

 

[watchnerd]

I really hate what they've done in the modern academy; it's all fandangled and outlandish bullshit research topics that they want to publish in papers for other academics to arbitrate and read. It's a total sham. Audio is a huge industry with legitimate design and R&D going on. I can assure you that there are real engineers and designers hard at work on the next generation of audio equipment; this Archel 2 is one great example of that.

Regardless of what's happening in academia, headphone amps are a "solved problem".

It's nice that the Archel 2 has good stats at a low price. But we're talking serious diminishing returns compared to the alternatives if transparency under most common scenarios is the goal.

Do we really think, with an average 50 ohm headphone, and level matched to within 0.1 dB, that the Archell is better / more transparent than any of the top 5 on the SINAD chart?

Or is it just solving the same problem....again...but a bit differently?

 

[pozz]

@JohnYang1997 I hope you post your prototypes and progress here at some point.

 

[Veri]

Seems my point was not clear.
Pointing engineering as the sole source of what you call a disastrous mess is showing a misunderstanding on how a product is designed.
I will take as example something that saw many people shocked on the forum: an crappy output transformer was used because the properly working one was "too expensive".
Who is at fault? The incompetent engineer? The finance guy who targeted a low cost BOM? The project manager who didn't give enough time to shave $ on other components to keep the good transformers? The marketing who gave crappy/no requirements that would anyhow be filled by whatever crap? Or a bit of all these people?
Obviously not all engineers are good, but most of the time, a crappy product is the outcome of a crappy company, not of a crappy engineer.

Yes I definitely see your point

 

[LuckyLuke575]

Regardless of what's happening in academia, headphone amps are a "solved problem".

It's nice that the Archel 2 has good stats at a low price. But we're talking serious diminishing returns compared to the alternatives if transparency under most common scenarios is the goal.

Do we really think, with an average 50 ohm headphone, and level matched to within 0.1 dB, that the Archell is better / more transparent than any of the top 5 on the SINAD chart?

Or is it just solving the same problem....again...but a bit differently?

It's not solved because I can't buy a $50 DAC/AMP with absolute zero distortion, zero noise, and 5 W of power. Until this perfect device exists, the problem hasn't been solved.

Your logic is like, ok Steve Jobs invented the iPhone 1, so smartphones are a solved problem at that point lmao

 

[watchnerd]

It's not solved because I can't buy a $50 DAC/AMP with absolute zero distortion, zero noise, and 5 W of power. Until this perfect device exists, the problem hasn't been solved.

But you don't need 0 distortion and 5 watts.

You need enough power to your cans (50 ohm in the example given) loud enough to damage your hearing and distortion low enough that you can't hear it.

For that scenario, the problem *is* solved.

 

[LuckyLuke575]

I really hate it when people who have no idea about a topic spewing nonsense about a topic. At least in the United States, many technologies are first developed in an academic settings (that includes software, hardware, medicine, sensors etc.) then licensed out and commercialized. Academic researchers are the major whistleblowers to corporate malpractices. Public research money's ROI to the society is in the 100-1000X based on fairly conservative estimates (and field of study dependent).

Well then you agree with my point of view that research should serve a practical end. Because the guy I was replying to with the initial comment said that engineers aren't working on audio equipment anymore, which is a practical area, and are instead focusing on other outlandish stuff. So don't pick and choose specific parts of comments to focus on because then going down the wrong path and making a fool of yourself by missing the point.

 

[Labjr]

I don't think there's a a DAC with the best specs combined with a headphone amp with the best specs?

 

[watchnerd]

I don't think there's a a DAC with the best specs combined with a headphone amp with the best specs?

REM ADI-2 (Pro or regular) is pretty damn close for non-extreme headphones, and certainly top tier on the DAC.

 

[badboygolf16v]

On topic, the THD/IMD rise at LF, I suspect a (ceramic) input coupling cap with some voltage coefficient? ... given only little specs on the product we don't know if there is one, but Amir's FR plot suggest there is, giving a -3dB LF corner of a few Hz.

I will replace with a couple of these. Only €288 each.

 

[LLL]

Well then you agree with my point of view that research should serve a practical end. Because the guy I was replying to with the initial comment said that engineers aren't working on audio equipment anymore, which is a practical area, and are instead focusing on other outlandish stuff. So don't pick and choose specific parts of comments to focus on because then going down the wrong path and making a fool of yourself by missing the point.

Not agreeing with you, not at all. I enjoy making a fool of myself, when it comes to discussions; I get to grow from learning.

Your point of view believes that research must serve a practical end. Whose practical end? Yours? There aren't many researches out there that don't serve some purpose, and one of those being our understanding of the world and advancement of knowledge. While there might be some anti-science researches that go on (like homeopathy and junk as such), most researches, even those in humanities, art, history and non-scientific topics, serve many purposes. I'd also argue that building audio equipment at this level of precision serves no practical end; it no longer enhances communications; in fact, I'd argue that old telephone lines are already enough for practical purposes. High-end audio doesn't save lives or involve in any survival mechanism. So, why bother?

Sure, not many EEs end up doing audio; and most are working in areas that are fulfilling market needs (that's why they are being paid). I don't know of any EEs whom are working in researches in "outlandish" areas; could you enlighten me with some examples?

 

[LLL]

That's the idea. To tackle difficult issues. Making working high performance opamp in low voltage application and low power application.
And yes I have already gotten better performance than THX and this. I have got -127db distortion at 1khz and -123db at 10khz with 500mw 8ohn load and all below -130db for 32ohm. I could say those because I have done it. From I don't know much to what I'm now it took only a year(spare time) to tinkering. And because of from what I learn from my peers when doing design proficiency. I realized how good we all are.
Back to the other point. Analog device is not equivalent to audio. We have limitation of our hearing. Yes sure better is better but that's what it is. I have been furious about audio for years since 2012 2014 probably. That's pretty long time for young folks like me. I have discussion with Tom on this forum. He's really nice. I learned a lot from him.

Talk is cheap. Show your data. Build it, and show it. Tom and I combined probably have practiced for over 50 years in engineering.

I have no idea what you meant by "analog device is not equivalent to audio". And like another member said, you are fully ignoring the resources it requires to take something to market. Tinkering is fun and all, given you are using your spare time. The moment cost of doing business is taken into account and you have mouths to feed, it's a different story.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Talk is cheap. Show your data. Build it, and show it. Tom and I combined probably have practiced for over 50 years in engineering.

I have no idea what you meant by "analog device is not equivalent to audio". And like another member said, you are fully ignoring the resources it requires to take something to market. Tinkering is fun and all, given you are using your spare time. The moment cost of doing business is taken into account and you have mouths to feed, it's a different story.

Fine. If you want to put it that way. Then I'll tell. I'm going to collaborate with topping to develop next generation of A30 at the end of this year. Pricing is aim at 150 dollars range. BOM is even lower than Atom. And performance is better than THX 887. There may be another 300 dollar model. Just wait and see. It will destroy.

 

[LLL]

Fine. If you want to put it that way. Then I'll tell. I'm going to collaborate with topping to develop next generation of A30 at the end of this year. Pricing is aim at 150 dollars range. BOM is even lower than Atom. And performance is better than THX 887. There may be another 300 dollar model. Just wait and see. It will destroy.

Congratulations on landing such a collaboration. I hope they are paying you well enough to do such a project. We, of course, can't wait to see this destroyer model and watch you shine.