A millennial's rant on classical music

[REK2575]

And yet, straightforward "Boogie Woogie" appeals to many more people than Beethoven. Put some Beethoven on your gramophone and most people will yawn. Put some Jools Holland on (I'm not a fan, myself) and many more of them will be smiling and loving the music. What does that tell us? That Beethoven could have churned out boogie woogie by the bucket load but resisted the populist route because he didn't want his music to be enjoyed by common people? Or that Jools Holland is more of a genius than Beethoven because his music has more appeal to more people?

Wow. If I wanted to find a perfect example of utterly baseless -- and meaningless -- generalization about classical music, or Beethoven in particular, I could not do better than this.

I think Schiff is a wonderful musician, but I could not care less if Beethoven 'prefigured' Boogie Woogie or not. I'm not at all persauded by the argument that he did, and not at all persuaded that it would even matter if he had.

Nevertheless, it's always a fallacy to universalize one's own limited experience to 'obvious truths' like this. In your experience, Boogie Woogie may appeal to more people than Beethoven. Fantastic. But, it's your own experience. Don't try to pass it off as 'fact.'

Millions of people love Boogie Woogie. Millions of people love Beethoven. It's not a popularity contest. Both are beloved and enjoyed by many, many people. Some of them even love both.

 

[Zog]

What one likes has nothing to do with the quality of music.

I like some music that is objectively not very good (say, Bob Dylan).

Ravel said Bolero contained no music. A sentiment with which I concur. Yet I like it. Not because I like it despite being a poor piece, but rather I think it is a good piece. I don't mind the repetition, I do like the orchestration and the dynamic build up. I like the ending.

 

[Fluffy]

I've resisted replying to this because the OP was just a baseless and ignorant rant... there is snobbishness in ALL cultures and music fan groups...

Music is a cultural artifact...

To the OP, perhaps your education was deficient, sorry... but so was mine and that did not stop me... (I became a successful classical music composer for several years) I suggest you investigate the Living Composer Project at http://composers21.com and chase down and listen to as many of the works listed there as possible - a great many are on youtube and are freely available. Then think about them, and what they are saying/doing... I'd even suggest going back earlier and checking out the works of Xenakis, Koenig, Berio, Cage, Barrett (both of them), Barlow, Ives, Nancarrow, Stockhausen, Maderna, Boulez, Dodge, Wishart, Austin, Collins, Malec, Dillon, Doornbusch, Ferneyhough, Kagel, Ligeti, Lucier, Maderna, Donatoni, (even) Pemderski, Scelci, Varese, (even) Webern, & Zorn - there are many others, that was just what I can think of now... then after you have listened to their works a few times and thought about them, come back and tell us what you think about "classical" music.`

I've resisted replying to this so far because most people here presented thoughtful and convincing arguments, but this ridiculous suggestion is forcing me to respond.

Given your background I'll go out on a limb and guess that you aren't a fan of Power Metal. That's too bad, perhaps your education was deficient, sorry. But so was mine and did not stop me. I suggest you investigate the Encyclopedia Metallum at https://www.metal-archives.com/ and chase down and listen to as many of the works listed there as possible - a great many are on youtube and are freely available. Then think about them, and what they are saying/doing... I suggest checking out the works of Adagio, Ark, Blind Guardian, Conception, Dark Moor, Dragonforce, Edguy, Evergrey, Firewind, Helloween, Iced earth, Luce Turilli, Redemption, Rhapsody (both Luca Turilli's Rhapsody and Rhapsody of Fire), Sabaton, Savage Circus, Sonata Arctica, Symphony X, Virgin Steele, Yngwie Malmsteen, (even) Nevermore, Dio, (even) Manowar, early Pantera, Rainbow, Epica, Nightwish, Adrenaline Mob, Michael Romeo & Michael Pinnella – there are many others, that was just what I can think of now... then after you have listened to their works a few times and thought about them, come back and tell us what you think about "Power Metal" music.

 

[Robin L]

Wow. If I wanted to find a perfect example of utterly baseless -- and meaningless -- generalization about classical music, or Beethoven in particular, I could not do better than this.

I think Schiff is a wonderful musician, but I could not care less if Beethoven 'prefigured' Boogie Woogie or not. I'm not at all persauded by the argument that he did, and not at all persuaded that it would even matter if he had.

Nevertheless, it's always a fallacy to universalize one's own limited experience to 'obvious truths' like this. In your experience, Boogie Woogie may appeal to more people than Beethoven. Fantastic. But, it's your own experience. Don't try to pass it off as 'fact.'

Millions of people love Boogie Woogie. Millions of people love Beethoven. It's not a popularity contest. Both are beloved and enjoyed by many, many people. Some of them even love both.

I doubt the third variation of Beethoven's 32nd sonata influenced anyone to Boogie-Woogie. The meter's the same, but folks really didn't pay attention to the late sonatas/quartets until well into the 20th century. It does indicate that reality of syncopation everywhere, but that's all there is to it.

Funny thing, Ali Farka" Touré made these records that sounded like blues, so people thought "This proves that the blues came from Africa". Turns out that Ali Farka" Touré was heavily influenced by John Lee Hooker.

One night I was layin' down
I heard mama and papa talkin'
I heard papa tell mama let that boy boogie-woogie
It's in him and it got to come out
And I felt so good
Went on boogin' just the same

 

[ahofer]

I think there is some truth to the idea that people respond more viscerally to a song form like “boogie-woogie”. Infants also seem to have a better initial response to tonal harmonies, or so I’ve heard. But initial response is not the sum total of artistic appreciation.

I tried to post a few things that served as “gateway drugs” to the classical tradition for me (yet they are not among my favorites now-interesting). I’d be interested in nominations for the best “gateway drugs” to other genres. Particularly serialists, but also metal, etc.

In jazz-or particularly bop, Art Blakey and the Jazz messengers were my gateway drug.

for Bluegrass, an all-Star group called Strength in Numbers was my gateway drug.

 

[Robin L]

My "gateway drug" to "Clasical Music" was Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique. It was 1968, up to that point, top 40 rules my world. Had an earphone in my ear hooked up to a transistor pocket radio from 1964 to 1966, my own table radio. Would flip between stations between songs. In 1968, moved to Fresno. My homeroom teacher introduced me to some classical records. I thought that Berlioz captured psychedelia better than anyone else, got downright obsessed with Symphonie Fantastique. This led to Beethoven. I found out much later that Beethoven took a lot of laudenum in his later, totally deaf, years, the music of Beethoven I find the most remarkable.

My intro to old timey was the totally, irresponsibly stoned Holy Modal Rounders, my intro to jazz Billie Holiday & Charlie Parker. Do we recognize a leitmotiv here?

My gateway drug to serialism was Frank Zappa.

My gateway drug to musique concrete was Revolution #9.

 

[rodtor]

I wonder what the “twee and twaddle” guy further up would think.

...

... or he might just try the 'avant-garde 50' playlist on Spotify, as I am right now, as well as their other more modern lists. Some really astonishing stuff.

 

[ahofer]

“My gateway drug to serialism was Frank Zappa”

I know a few others who would say that. I think Zappa is a good artist to bring up in this thread. Sorry I didn’t think of it.

a good gateway to modern is Hindemith’s “Der Schwanendreher” viola concerto. My wife won a concerto competition with it, which certainly biases me, but it has moments of accessible, transcendent beauty in the 2nd and 3rd movements, and it isn’t long before you start to love the rest.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Why would I care what anyone else thinks about the music I listen to?

^^ Exactly.

 

[JJB70]

Take music as you find it on musical terms. If you enjoy it then great, if you give it a fair try and just don't enjoy it then move on. I don't think any classical music fans here are seeking to impose a love of classical music on everyone or trying to claim there is anything wrong with disliking it as music. But if you dislike it then dislike it as music and not because you dislike certain stereotypes associated with classical music. These stereotypes are not reflective of classical music enthusiasts I know. I am a marine engineer and anything but a tuxedo wearing society type (I spent the first half of my career to date wearing overalls and ear defenders in ships engine rooms). The friends I have who share my passion are also mostly other marine engineers and naval architects and far removed from what seems to be the stereotype. I developed a love of classical music at about age 12 and for me it has always been about the music.

As for the term classical music, of course it is a gross generalisation and pretty meaningless really but it is the term most people use. There are so many musical forms and idioms that to talk about classical music is like asking whether or not a person likes music. Classical music enthusiasts are acutely aware of the limitations of the term but it is what we have. Consider the evolution of pop music over the last 30 years (most would realise asking whether a person likes pop music is a pointless question in itself as people like some pop music and hate other acts and songs) then add a zero onto the time line and imagine rolling pop, rock and roll, metal, hip hop, punk, electronic, dance and more into a single group term over that massively extended time line to get an idea.

 

[ashleydoormat]

OP I agree that it's more likely that you dislike the culture surrounding classical music than the genre itself. Being kinda forced to attend music lessons /practice and concerts and listen to music you didn't relate to would do that to you. It didn't help that there's some really annoying elitist attitude in the music industry. I myself didn't care for classical music when I was younger but my relative who taught piano at a conservatory liked to bring me to concerts (in which I promptly fell asleep after awhile lol) and complained about how tasteless modern music is. My violin teacher also liked to rant on and on about how good/expensive a Strad is and how much grit it took to be the first violins in a good orchestra. I didn't care for the perceived privilege and wanted to focus on the music itself. I kept an open mind and finally found the kinda classical music I like (Tchaikovsky, Dovark, Rachmaninoff a.k.a intense Russian pieces) and also some dark stuff like Mozart's Requiem. Then I realized what I actually I like is the intensity and darkness in any genre, not just classical music. I now listen to maybe 70% intense techno, psychtrance, deep house, 20% classical and 10% others depending on mood. Many video game and anime OSTs also have amazing orchestration just like film music. I wouldn't limit myself to the narrowed selections of classical music defined by someone else. TLDR: You don't have to like classical music and especially don't have to listen to anyone who tells you what you should or should not like. Keep your mind open and listen to whatever shxt you want.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I don't think that artists make as many distinctions or generalizations between genres as listeners.

Mik Kaminsky played violin for ELO before returning to classical. ELO's early stuff (No Answer) was closer to chamber music than anything else... and the band fragmented due to members protests over the band transitioning to pop/rock.

Rick Wakeman was a classical pianist of some note before donning a silver cape and joining Yes.

Charley Watts was a jazz man before The Rolling Stones (blues, rock).

I can think of a few Black Sabbath/Ozzy songs with very strong classical overtones.

Genesis was a program rock band that dabbled with rock/pop as a way of paying the bills.

And don't get me started on session musicians who make a living playing anything that pays...

 

[ahofer]

“I don't think that artists make as many distinctions or generalizations between genres as listeners.”

great list. Add Wynton Marsalis, Bela Fleck, Mark O’Connor, Yo-Yo Ma, Edgar Meyer, Lady Ga-Ga, Itzhak Perlman, Steve Vai, Al Dimeola, Paco DeLucia, Adam Guettel....you could do this for a while.

Joni Mitchell, of course.

 

[scott wurcer]

For a little historical perspective I'm always amused by the 1935 film "Transatlantic Tunnel". At the beginning a rich industrialist "tortures" prospective investors with Beethoven. A man in the audience says, "Does this tune ever end", a woman responds "It's Beethoven, he's dead". The man responds, "Good". This controversy, if there is one, is not new.

 

[Frank Dernie]

The Nice, Emerson, Lake and Palmer, Nigel Kennedy...

 

[Sal1950]

The Nice, Emerson, Lake and Palmer, Nigel Kennedy...

Yep, Keith Emerson built a musical career on merging classical and rock styles. Some of my all-time favorite progressive rock has been done on Keith's keyboard. "Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends"

 

[GrimSurfer]

Yep, Keith Emerson built a musical career on merging classical and rock styles. Some of my all-time favorite progressive rock has been done on Keith's keyboard. "Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends"

The music industry is a Karn Evil.

 

[Juhazi]

I LIKE GOOD MUSIC!

Goodness is just between MY own ears. I am a hedonist seeking amusement or eg. sentimental feelings, depending on my mood. Quite often it is the vocal performance that makes tears in my eyes, be those of joy or sentiment. Like Frank D. I don't actually listen to the lyrics, but sometimes it is words, sometimes just interpretation that moves me.

When I was younger I was a bit frustrated because I couldn't remenber lyrics or recognize pieces as well as many of my friends. Aging helps to accept one's limitations and now with better self confidence, I can now enjoy wider variety of music!

 

[pwjazz]

“I don't think that artists make as many distinctions or generalizations between genres as listeners.”

great list. Add Wynton Marsalis, Bela Fleck, Mark O’Connor, Yo-Yo Ma, Edgar Meyer, Lady Ga-Ga, Itzhak Perlman, Steve Vai, Al Dimeola, Paco DeLucia, Adam Guettel....you could do this for a while.

Joni Mitchell, of course.

Gotta throw Sting in there.

 

[GrimSurfer]

There's only one thing that would make music better...