A millennial's rant on classical music

[Frank Dernie]

Unfortunately many classical music aficionados I have known deserve the satirical snobby put-down as depicted by Niles and Frasier Crane in the Frasier TV series. Narrow minded musical taste, snobbish superiority and condescension in spades.
Those interested in other genres may not like classical music much but are typically indifferent to it rather than condemning. View attachment 35888

My experience has been completely the opposite.
When I was a student in particular the snobbish abuse I used to get by rock music enthusiasts about listening to anything else was common. I didn't like opera back then, though I do now, and the number of people I have heard being snooty about how awful opera singers sound outnumber the number of people saying the opposite thousands to one.
I am content to say music I don't like is not to my taste, rather than saying it is bad.
That is not my experience amongst music lovers in general, and I have had very many more snobby comments anti-classical than in the other direction.
Maybe it depends which country you are in?

 

[digicidal]

That is not my experience amongst music lovers in general, and I have had very many more snobby comments anti-classical than in the other direction.
Maybe it depends which country you are in?

Probably does... although I'm sure it also depends highly on the ages of those involved. I think there's an inherent determination to "compare and prove against" that comes with youth - I know I was afflicted by it quite a bit. Along with age comes more of an awareness that you're not right as much as you thought, that you aren't as good at things as you thought, and that the exceptions and failures are often where the greatest epiphanies occur.

Although to be fair, for some this comes much later than with others... but I think for most it at least starts in your 40's - when shit that used to be easy starts hurting more the next day.

 

[Wombat]

Thousands? Are you a music evangelist?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Thousands? Are you a music evangelist?

I've told you a million times not to exaggerate.
Edit: In reality I am an old bloke who has enjoyed classical music for 50 years and have come across a lot of sneering from people who don't, on reflection I am not sure if 1000 is an exaggeration or not.
Certainly here I am FAR more likely to be sneered at for liking classical music (and Leonard Cohen ) than the other way around.

 

[Wombat]

I've told you a million times not to exaggerate.
Edit: In reality I am an old bloke who has enjoyed classical music for 50 years and have come across a lot of sneering from people who don't, on reflection I am not sure if 1000 is an exaggeration or not.
Certainly here I am FAR more likely to be sneered at for liking classical music (and Leonard Cohen ) than the other way around.

Get a Tux. and move up in the world.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Get a Tux. and move up in the world.

wtf would I need a tux for????

 

[digicidal]

Oh crap... I also like Leonard Cohen...

 

[Robin L]

Oh crap... I also like Leonard Cohen...

Jazz Police are coming for you. Better have some papers to show 'em on your way down.

 

[digicidal]

Jazz Police are coming for you. Better have some papers to show 'em on your way down.

Guys like me are mad for turtle meat!

 

[Wombat]

Oh crap... I also like Leonard Cohen...

So do I. And Marianne faithful.

 

[Wombat]

wtf would I need a tux for????

As befits your age and to show you know how to conductor yourself.

 

[digicidal]

As befits your age and to show you know how to conductor yourself.

You should resistor making a joke like that.

 

[ahofer]

Unfortunately many classical music aficionados I have known deserve the satirical snobby put-down as depicted by Niles and Frasier Crane in the Frasier TV series. Narrow minded musical taste, snobbish superiority and condescension in spades.
Those interested in other genres may not like classical music much but are typically indifferent to it rather than condemning. View attachment 35888

And yet this thread, and even to some extent your very post, demonstrate precisely the opposite.

 

[ahofer]

We still have people saying that they like "classical". Presumably they also like "non-classical". So they pretty much like all music.

Except that no one says they like non-classical. Instead they tell you directly which genres of non-classical they like - or maybe they're even more specific than that. So why are people so easily prepared to say they like "classical"?

It looks as though they regard "classical" as a monolith; something they like as a whole, or reject. And it is an aspiration for many to learn how to like this 'blob' of high culture.

There are sub-genres within other types of music. Do people say they like “non-pop”? Furthermore, examples of pieces one likes or dislikes exist within any, even narrow, genre. That doesn’t stop people from defending a genre, and all the more a broad long-lasting one like the classical tradition.

If you read my posts you would have noticed that I named several parts of the classical tradition that haven’t appealed to me-serialism, opera, much of early baroque.

So, once again, the evidence contrary to a broad and somewhat insulting generalization exists within this very thread .

 

[PaulD]

I've resisted replying to this because the OP was just a baseless and ignorant rant... there is snobbishness in ALL cultures and music fan groups...

Music is a cultural artifact...

To the OP, perhaps your education was deficient, sorry... but so was mine and that did not stop me... (I became a successful classical music composer for several years) I suggest you investigate the Living Composer Project at http://composers21.com and chase down and listen to as many of the works listed there as possible - a great many are on youtube and are freely available. Then think about them, and what they are saying/doing... I'd even suggest going back earlier and checking out the works of Xenakis, Koenig, Berio, Cage, Barrett (both of them), Barlow, Ives, Nancarrow, Stockhausen, Maderna, Boulez, Dodge, Wishart, Austin, Collins, Malec, Dillon, Doornbusch, Ferneyhough, Kagel, Ligeti, Lucier, Maderna, Donatoni, (even) Pemderski, Scelci, Varese, (even) Webern, & Zorn - there are many others, that was just what I can think of now... then after you have listened to their works a few times and thought about them, come back and tell us what you think about "classical" music.`

 

[Soniclife]

My experience has been completely the opposite.
When I was a student in particular the snobbish abuse I used to get by rock music enthusiasts about listening to anything else was common. I didn't like opera back then, though I do now, and the number of people I have heard being snooty about how awful opera singers sound outnumber the number of people saying the opposite thousands to one.
I am content to say music I don't like is not to my taste, rather than saying it is bad.
That is not my experience amongst music lovers in general, and I have had very many more snobby comments anti-classical than in the other direction.
Maybe it depends which country you are in?

I think it depends what country, and decade you are in, how old they are, but mainly how insecure the person critising is.

 

[ahofer]

I think it depends what country, and decade you are in, how old they are, but mainly how insecure the person critising is.

There remains that childish, or clannish, impulse of “you like__(something deemed uncool)___? Anyone who likes _______(ditto)____ sucks!”.
Which, for adults, gets turned into elaborate theories or over-broad generalizations of how one preference is more subtle, or cooler, or more genuine, than another.

 

[Soniclife]

There remains that childish, or clannish, impulse of “you like__(something deemed uncool)___? Anyone who likes _______(ditto)____ sucks!”.
Which, for adults, gets turned into elaborate theories or over-broad generalizations of how one preference is more subtle, or cooler, or more genuine, than another.

Which is all just insecurity, if you are secure in your own tastes you are not threatened by other people's taste, so feel no need to attack them for it.

 

[ahofer]

I've resisted replying to this because the OP was just a baseless and ignorant rant... there is snobbishness in ALL cultures and music fan groups...

Music is a cultural artifact...

To the OP, perhaps your education was deficient, sorry... but so was mine and that did not stop me... (I became a successful classical music composer for several years) I suggest you investigate the Living Composer Project at http://composers21.com and chase down and listen to as many of the works listed there as possible - a great many are on youtube and are freely available. Then think about them, and what they are saying/doing... I'd even suggest going back earlier and checking out the works of Xenakis, Koenig, Berio, Cage, Barrett (both of them), Barlow, Ives, Nancarrow, Stockhausen, Maderna, Boulez, Dodge, Wishart, Austin, Collins, Malec, Dillon, Doornbusch, Ferneyhough, Kagel, Ligeti, Lucier, Maderna, Donatoni, (even) Pemderski, Scelci, Varese, (even) Webern, & Zorn - there are many others, that was just what I can think of now... then after you have listened to their works a few times and thought about them, come back and tell us what you think about "classical" music.`

I wonder what the “twee and twaddle” guy further up would think if he were to complete such a daunting assignment.

 

[PaulD]

There remains that childish, or clannish, impulse of “you like__(something deemed uncool)___? Anyone who likes _______(ditto)____ sucks!”.
Which, for adults, gets turned into elaborate theories or over-broad generalizations of how one preference is more subtle, or cooler, or more genuine, than another.

In for a penny... I guess (I'd promised myself I would not reply again...)

What one likes has nothing to do with the quality of music.

I like some music that is objectively not very good (say, Bob Dylan).

I dislike some music which by objective measures (yes, it's easily possible with a little critical thinking) is rather good, such as Mahler (I can't stand it, despite a career in classical music).

Go beyond (petty) personal preference, we all have that. Music is a cultural artefact. Culture changes. Try understanding it on its own terms. Enjoy what you want and how you want, but don't bother others with that, or trying to say what is "right" or "better" unless you define a set of parameters to define it against.

Can we develop the equivalent of SINAD ,for music? Sure! but some people will be unhappy, not that it matters, or is important!

I really like like listening to a bunch of music that many people would think is shite. I don't care. Why would I care what anyone else thinks about the music I listen to?

I see this whole argument as the equivalent of, "Valves or analogue are warmer and smoother, everyone knows that, what are we all not listening to vinyl???" It's nonsense...