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A millennial's rant on classical music

RayDunzl

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Went to Sam's today, to to get food.

Outdoors, walking past the Auto Service bays, came Vivaldi (Baroque Period), from somewhere within.
 

scott wurcer

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Went to Sam's today, to to get food.

Outdoors, walking past the Auto Service bays, came Vivaldi (Baroque Period), from somewhere within.

At my daughter's 8th grade graduation one of the kids played Spring on the violin and it took me almost to the end to recognize what was being played.
 

BDWoody

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Went to Sam's today, to to get food.

Outdoors, walking past the Auto Service bays, came Vivaldi (Baroque Period), from somewhere within.

How was he? Friend from your youth?
;)
 

audimus

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Believing and stating factually wrong things is ignorance. As for snobbery-from my perspective it is you who have behaved snobbishly. You made a factually wrong statement that diminished music in the classical tradition, apparently to suit the thesis, such as it was, of your prior post. Ironic, then, that you make accusations of ethnocentrism in trying to justify your oversimplification. You will notice I have cast no aspersions on, or tried to oversimplify or diminish other forms of music. Rather, I’ve just resisted those I’ve seen here.

This is a good example of the problem. It is this “you are either with X or against X” binary thinking.

The post you alluded to also said European composers were geniuses for their melodic construction. One could go off on a rant like you on how that is a generalization and nit pick with examples of how there were some really bad pieces that shows they are not geniuses. No one did. It pointed out the superlative harmonic construction of classical music relative to other forms. Someone could have gone on a rant on how some music form X had great harmony and I was only trying to diss other forms of music. No one did. As much as discussions on these forums go, they are not doctoral theses and so by nature tend to be larger picture generalizations as is every post on this thread.

You had to take something where classical was said to be weaker than other forms and tried to nit pick and formulate the post as diminishing a form of music. And attributed that to ignorance with a snarky comment. I could have said you are the ignorant one who does not really listen to syncopation to spout your views. But that isn’t a honest discussion. People can differ on their views and it is usually tied to a difference in their premises which is fine. I pointed out my premise. You took it go make further snarky comments with that snobbish attitude.

For people like you, there is no relative evaluation of music as an enthusiast or a student of music where some forms are seen to more advanced than others in aspects. It is tied to your identity and hence the jerk reaction. There is no basis for disagreement other than assuming ignorance on the part of the other. Sad.
 

ahofer

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This is a good example of the problem. It is this “you are either with X or against X” binary thinking.

The post you alluded to also said European composers were geniuses for their melodic construction. One could go off on a rant like you on how that is a generalization and nit pick with examples of how there were some really bad pieces that shows they are not geniuses. No one did. It pointed out the superlative harmonic construction of classical music relative to other forms. Someone could have gone on a rant on how some music form X had great harmony and I was only trying to diss other forms of music. No one did. As much as discussions on these forums go, they are not doctoral theses and so by nature tend to be larger picture generalizations as is every post on this thread.

You had to take something where classical was said to be weaker than other forms and tried to nit pick and formulate the post as diminishing a form of music. And attributed that to ignorance with a snarky comment. I could have said you are the ignorant one who does not really listen to syncopation to spout your views. But that isn’t a honest discussion. People can differ on their views and it is usually tied to a difference in their premises which is fine. I pointed out my premise. You took it go make further snarky comments with that snobbish attitude.

For people like you, there is no relative evaluation of music as an enthusiast or a student of music where some forms are seen to more advanced than others in aspects. It is tied to your identity and hence the jerk reaction. There is no basis for disagreement other than assuming ignorance on the part of the other. Sad.

Well we obviously don’t see eye to eye. I think you built your long disquisition on a false premise that belittled the classical tradition, and you think I’m a snob for pointing out how false your premise was, with a bunch of examples.

But you lash out with another dismissive generalization:

“For people like you, there is no relative evaluation of music as an enthusiast or a student of music where some forms are seen to more advanced than others in aspects.”

This is simply asinine, and clearly disproved many times in the thread above.

I think you screwed up trying to plonk on the thread, and you just can’t admit it. I will leave you, and the discussion, there.
 
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PaulD

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I've resisted replying to this so far because most people here presented thoughtful and convincing arguments, but this ridiculous suggestion is forcing me to respond.

Given your background I'll go out on a limb and guess that you aren't a fan of Power Metal. That's too bad, perhaps your education was deficient, sorry. But so was mine and did not stop me. I suggest you investigate the Encyclopedia Metallum at https://www.metal-archives.com/ and chase down and listen to as many of the works listed there as possible - a great many are on youtube and are freely available. Then think about them, and what they are saying/doing... I suggest checking out the works of Adagio, Ark, Blind Guardian, Conception, Dark Moor, Dragonforce, Edguy, Evergrey, Firewind, Helloween, Iced earth, Luce Turilli, Redemption, Rhapsody (both Luca Turilli's Rhapsody and Rhapsody of Fire), Sabaton, Savage Circus, Sonata Arctica, Symphony X, Virgin Steele, Yngwie Malmsteen, (even) Nevermore, Dio, (even) Manowar, early Pantera, Rainbow, Epica, Nightwish, Adrenaline Mob, Michael Romeo & Michael Pinnella – there are many others, that was just what I can think of now... then after you have listened to their works a few times and thought about them, come back and tell us what you think about "Power Metal" music.
Duh! I just bought the new Tool album - not power metal, but still metal and I listen to plenty of it. I'm also not criticising any music culture or music itself - that was you. You are the one who started the ignorant rant about classical music. You cannot validly criticise something that you have such limited experience with.
 
OP
Fluffy

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Duh! I just bought the new Tool album - not power metal, but still metal and I listen to plenty of it. I'm also not criticising any music culture or music itself - that was you. You are the one who started the ignorant rant about classical music. You cannot validly criticise something that you have such limited experience with.
Limited compared to what? Do I need to have a PHD in music studies and a career as a composer before I can say a bad word about some genre of music? Your suggestion that I first need to listen to some selection of composers before I am allowed to form an opinion on the subject is the very essence of elitism.

I don't consider myself a critic of any genre of music, especially classical, and at no point was I criticizing anything. As I said in the first paragraph of the original post, this is all just my opinions and my subjective reasons why I don't like this music. And by the way, I also wasn't insinuating that you were criticizing anything, I just made fun of your really unhelpful post.
 

Cosmik

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Wow. If I wanted to find a perfect example of utterly baseless -- and meaningless -- generalization about classical music, or Beethoven in particular, I could not do better than this.
....
Millions of people love Boogie Woogie. Millions of people love Beethoven. It's not a popularity contest. Both are beloved and enjoyed by many, many people. Some of them even love both.
Wow. if I wanted to find an utterly vacuous statement of the obvious with zero insight and curiosity, I could not do better than this.
 

Jinjuku

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Enjoy the music you want. Don't listen to the stuff you don't want too. I'm a big classical music fan also rock, jazz, fusion, some country. Not into modern bubble gum pop, rap, current R&B, hip-hop.

No long post on why. It just is what it is.
 

REK2575

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Wow. if I wanted to find an utterly vacuous statement of the obvious with zero insight and curiosity, I could not do better than this.

Would you care to dispute the point of my post -- which, since you clearly need it to be summarized, was that your claim that 'most people are bored by Beethoven, most people love Boogie Woogie', is a baseless opinion with absolutely nothing but your limited musical experience given as 'support' -- or are you content simply to mimic my conclusion without giving anything that could be counted as reasoned argument to back it up?

Because that tends not to be the most persuasive approach.

Your claim, that Beethoven is boring and Boogie Woogie is far more beloved, is the vacuous and embarassing one, sorry to say.
 

digicidal

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Can we all at least agree that a large amount of music of every genre (without naming names) is absolute shit? Not most, certainly not all (or why be here in the first place) but still a good sized chunk of it. That's what gets the vitriol flowing most of the time (like this thread has proven) - the reality that one man's ceiling is another's floor... and you're never going to change that.

Is someone inherently wrong for liking Britney Spears or David Hasselhoff? In my mind YES, yes they are! ;) They should be flogged in the street and publicly executed afterwards... yet millions upon millions worldwide disagree. It isn't a product of ignorance of the alternatives, or lack of education - in most it's simply what they prefer - and they'd want me flogged for loving Megadeth and/or Mahler for that reason.

Luckily only a handful of people alive today have the private armies or control of governments to actually see that become a reality... so for the rest of us I guess we'll just have to accept that everyone else isn't us and get on with life. Which isn't easy I'll admit, and I'm often guilty of the same - but it is more productive.
1571021327823.png
 

digicidal

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Great I just doomed myself to reading through a few hundred XKCD toons now. There went the evening. :facepalm:

This also seemed somehow fitting:
1571022848166.png
 

Cosmik

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Would you care to dispute the point of my post -- which, since you clearly need it to be summarized, was that your claim that 'most people are bored by Beethoven, most people love Boogie Woogie', is a baseless opinion with absolutely nothing but your limited musical experience given as 'support' -- or are you content simply to mimic my conclusion without giving anything that could be counted as reasoned argument to back it up?

Because that tends not to be the most persuasive approach.

Your claim, that Beethoven is boring and Boogie Woogie is far more beloved, is the vacuous and embarassing one, sorry to say.
My earlier comment quoted this point made by someone else:
András Schiff resists the notion that the op 111 c minor sonata has "Boogie-Woogie", but it's safe to say that Schiff sees no need to emphasize the similarities. Your own ears will help you reach your own conclusions:
I asked some questions arising from this that seem to have annoyed you to the extent of being dismissive and insulting. Not sure why - they really were just questions. They're quite interesting questions, I think. I'll have another go, just to annoy you again:

If Beethoven wrote proto-boogie woogie, why didn't he develop it? Did he just miss it despite having music pouring out of his fingertips, or is there some reason why "classical" music didn't take the step of appealing to ordinary listeners? Or is it that the "rules" of the time prevented him from doing that, and we have different rules now? Or is it all a question of the catch-all term of "context"?

What I'm homing in on, is whether it is possible to "love" Beethoven and boogie woogie. If it is, the classical composers of the past missed a simple formula that can be regurgitated seemingly endlessly and never lose its appeal. Or is it that audiences weren't ready for it? If it's the latter, what makes them ready for it now? (as you point out, the audiences for both types of music are apparently not mutually exclusive). Of course it could be that classical composers were all tortured souls pouring their hearts onto the score, and none of them a boogie woogie sort of person. But I'm sure that some of them must have been in it for the fame, money and popularity.

I don't know the answers, but I think they're interesting questions. Sorry. But by all means see if you can enjoy misrepresenting them again.
 

Juhazi

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"Of course it could be that classical composers were all tortured souls pouring their hearts onto the score, and none of them a boogie woogie sort of person. But I'm sure that some of them must have been in it for the fame, money and popularity."


 

JJB70

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I think that a lot of composers sought fame and money, and it is easy to forget that this was the pop music of its day. Some composers such as Mozart mixed populism and rather heavy and serious music with aplomb and my late father also referred to Rossini as Italian pop music.
 

RayDunzl

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Not sure if this is Boogie Woogie, but there's something to like here...

(wait for it, or skip ahead)

 

RayDunzl

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An expert's opinion:

"I find music of the classical period boring because it reminds me of 'painting by numbers.' There are certain things composers of that period were not allowed to do because they were considered to be outside the boundaries of the industrial regulations which determined whether the piece was a symphony, a sonata or a whatever.

All of the norms, as practiced during the olden days, came into being because the guys who paid the bills wanted the 'tunes' they were buying to 'sound a certain way.'

The king said: "I'll chop off your head unless it sounds like this." The pope said: "I'll rip out your fingernails unless it sounds like this." The duke or somebody else might have said it another way -- and it's the same today: "Your song won't get played on the radio unless it sounds like this." People who think that classical music is somehow more elevated than 'radio music' should take a look at the forms involved -- and at who's paying the bills. Once upon a time, it was the king or Pope So-and-so. Today we have broadcast license holders, radio programmers, disc jockeys and record company executives -- banal reincarnations of the assholes who shaped the music of the past."
 

Robin L

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