Review and Measurements of Totaldac d1-six DAC

[Krunok]

Yes, it measured badly and You don´t wan´t it. Fair enough. But so many others do. That is my point. I would not go so far to blame them stupid or members of a cult. All I am saying is that there are people who made the decision and most likely would do it again regardless of Amir´s efforts to prove them wrong.

And what exactly is your point? This DAC is schiit yet many people are buying it. Red Bull is a ****** drink yet even more people are drinking it. If your point is that there are many people making bad choices because they are uninformed/ignorant, well we all know that. It is of course their right to do so but that doesn't change a thing that is a bad choice. But then again, we all know that too. You are on scientific forum, so either articulate your point in some meaningful way or try to read more and write less.

 

[Krunok]

Don't feed him, I've already said too much.

True. Ignore list jut got slightly bigger.

 

[jparvio]

You wouldn't be one of those guys who claim that, when it comes to DACs, not everything what we hear can be measured, wouldn't you? Because every few days a new guy comes here claiming that same thing yet nobody ever managed to prove such statement. In other words, either prove it or keep the subjective schiit to yourself..

I am one of those guys who wonder why everything must be so black and white... Perhaps I am just jealous to all of You who managed to find inner peace and Church of your own.

 

[jparvio]

And what exactly is your point? This DAC is schiit yet many people are buying it. Red Bull is a ****** drink yet even more people are drinking it. If your point is that there are many people making bad choices because they are uninformed/ignorant, well we all know that. It is of course their right to do so but that doesn't change a thing that is a bad choice. But then again, we all know that too. You are on scientific forum, so either articulate your point in some meaningful way or try to read more and write less.

Ok. Scientifically true; people are not completely reasonable animals. Scientifically interesting is, why that is so. This question remains yet unanswered. People buying badly measuring dacs or whatever is just one example of this.

Would it not be an effort for better to find the scientifically solid explanation for this? What possibly more meaningful there is to it?

https://medium.com/the-mission/reason-vs-emotion-cdd0b91e7b60

 

[diegooo1972]

Things has to be black or white.
And of course everything you really hear is measurable.
Otherwise you wouldn't be able to engineer a DAC measuring and calculating things.
Things have to be black or white to create objects with science.
Science create electronic equipments not the opposite.
The study come before then the equipments.
Sorry is just that avoiding ABX test seriously made, people still think to have emotions guided choice.
Well that is miserably false.
Emotions just tell people something wrong that simply is not there.
Put yourself at risk trying ABX.

 

[THW]

while the question regarding the rationality of us mere mortals is a possibly interesting topic, I think it is also fairly off topic in the context of this particular thread, maybe post this elsewhere instead?

 

[jparvio]

while the question regarding the rationality of us mere mortals is a possibly interesting topic, I think it is also fairly off topic in the context of this particular, maybe post this elsewhere instead?

True, I´ll leave for now.

 

[daftcombo]

Ok. Scientifically true; people are not completely reasonable animals. Scientifically interesting is, why that is so. This question remains yet unanswered. People buying badly measuring dacs or whatever is just one example of this.

Would it not be an effort for better to find the scientifically solid explanation for this? What possibly more meaningful there is to it?

https://medium.com/the-mission/reason-vs-emotion-cdd0b91e7b60

Do you know what are 13.500 € ? Six months of salary for an average Frenchman?

 

[Thomas savage]

I'm glad asking for more focus worked ...

 

[Krunok]

I'm glad asking for more focus worked ...

Asking?!? After old Thomas waved his Excalibur heads were rolling downhill for hours. Who are you and what have you done to him?

 

[AndrovichIV]

Ok. Scientifically true; people are not completely reasonable animals. Scientifically interesting is, why that is so. This question remains yet unanswered. People buying badly measuring dacs or whatever is just one example of this.

Would it not be an effort for better to find the scientifically solid explanation for this? What possibly more meaningful there is to it?

https://medium.com/the-mission/reason-vs-emotion-cdd0b91e7b60

people buy expensive DAC's that measure badly because they believe the PR of the company behind them, and believe that NOS is better, etc.
Also people fall in love with how the product looks. The reality is that the vast majority of people who own this DAC would be unable to differentiate it from a 70$ Behringer unit in a matched, ABX test.

 

[JohnPM]

I have only tested the Dayton Audio UMM6 and it is pretty bad. It has distortions just sitting there

The spikes at multiples of 1 kHz with USB mics is power supply modulation at the USB frame rate, it can vary between USB ports and interfaces. USB mics need good supply ripple rejection to remove that.

 

[Herbert]

I think the Totaldac and many other companies show how perverted High End has become in
the last years.
It is not about a product that delivers excellent measuring and extreme built quality and realiability.
This is how as one example the german company Burmester started. He had a background
medical engineering and just tranferred the standards to audio. I was an apprentice for a short time
and he did show me drafts designers sent to him unsolicited. But he turned them all down
as this was not his idea. Besides the chrome front plates, he never thought abou selling design.
It was a simple "form follows function" approach and all casing was more or less standard parts.

 

[Xulonn]

Again, measurements do count, but don´t explain it all.

Please drop the ridiculous strawman arguments - of course "measurements do not explain it all" - as has been admitted over and over and over again - even by members here who are not only deeply involved in science, but also heavily immersed in the arts, especially music.

Psychology and psychoacoustics demonstrate quite nicely - as has been confirmed independently over and over and over again - that many subjectively determined claims of hearing sonic differences - quite often disappear completely if the listener is not aware of the identity of which piece of two pieces of hardware that he is listening to in a calibrated audio system.

Why do you refuse to verify (prove?) your claims? What are you afraid of?

(No need to answer with a flailing of irrational excuses, because there are many here, often with only a rudimentary knowledge of psychology and psychoacoustics, who are aware of the extraordinary powers of the human ego to suppress information that challenges their beliefs - and you demonstrate repeatedly here that your beliefs are very, very strong, and easily suppress any tendency towards logic and rationality.)

 

[Frank Dernie]

Not so. You see, I have only tried to make a stand for the unrational side, which more than often leads to major decisions. You made a decision which, to the best of Your knowledge, You based on reason.

Many of them who acquire an audio equipment do so without either the knowledge, understanding or care for the measurements. I doubt anyone really decides to buy an expensive unit which measures less than adequately for that reason only. And there are so many expensive products available that I don´t really believe in cult behaviourism here. Some equipment just appeal to different audience for different reasons.

Again, measurements do count, but don´t explain it all.

Now you are deflecting the issue.
You said you heard a difference and the totalDAC was better, now you are saying decisions are not necessarily rational. Here I agree with you. I have bought hifi which I like the look of or the ergonomics of despite knowing they are not offering me better sound but a pleasure of ownership or use.
I have a Toyota, a Mercedes and a Ferrari all logical choices when I bought them and I would never claim they were all the same

 

[Frank Dernie]

While I agree with everything else you said here, IMO properly engineered amps sound identical too.

Probably, but I have heard differences between amps. I suspect that either high output impedance altering the FR or not enough power into a real load are the culprits but since very few tests are into a real load and almost nobody tests the effect of output impedance (Stereophile is the only one in English that I know of) it is hard to be sure an amp fits the category of "properly engineered".
For many years amps had 30 to 40 watts per channel, at this level it doesn't need much load intolerance for overload.
Nowadays it is less likely since amps tend to be much more powerful though quite a few highly regarded amps, even SS like darTZeel, have a high enough output impedance to audibly change the FR of a speaker.

 

[AndrovichIV]

Now you are deflecting the issue.
You said you heard a difference and the totalDAC was better, now you are saying decisions are not necessarily rational. Here I agree with you. I have bought hifi which I like the look of or the ergonomics of despite knowing they are not offering me better sound but a pleasure of ownership or use.
I have a Toyota, a Mercedes and a Ferrari all logical choices when I bought them and I would never claim they were all the same

*sigh* cars are fundamentally different than DAC's. A car drives you around, but also care about speed, acceleration, comfort, interior design. A car doesn't do just one thing, it does a bunch of things. Different people care more or less about these different aspects, and even the same people will change their preferences throughout their lifetime.

A DAC on the other hand has ONLY one function. To reproduce 0 and 1's faithfully. So it absolutely can be measured, and those measure can absolutely tell you if the DAC does its job well or not.

I have nothing against "special effects" or "sound signature" preferences, but those belong in my opinion in DSP software and not in the DAC. Transparent DAC's have to sound identical, by definition.

 

[Krunok]

Probably, but I have heard differences between amps. I suspect that either high output impedance altering the FR or not enough power into a real load are the culprits but since very few tests are into a real load and almost nobody tests the effect of output impedance (Stereophile is the only one in English that I know of) it is hard to be sure an amp fits the category of "properly engineered".

Very true. To judge capabilty of the amp I look at the power section and the current capability of the output stage.

For example, my 5 channel THX amp is rated at 120W per channel, all channels driven. When measured it clipped at 131Wpc with all channels driven and at 161Wpc with channels driven (264W at 4 Ohms). This is possible because each channel uses 4x15Amps transistors and power section consists of 1.5kVA toroidal transformer including eight 10,000µF slit-foil capacitors.

 

[SmackDaddies]

*sigh* cars are fundamentally different than DAC's. A car drives you around, but also care about speed, acceleration, comfort, interior design. A car doesn't do just one thing, it does a bunch of things. Different people care more or less about these different aspects, and even the same people will change their preferences throughout their lifetime.

A DAC on the other hand has ONLY one function. To reproduce 0 and 1's faithfully. So it absolutely can be measured, and those measure can absolutely tell you if the DAC does its job well or not.

I have nothing against "special effects" or "sound signature" preferences, but those belong in my opinion in DSP software and not in the DAC. Transparent DAC's have to sound identical, by definition.

This is the correct way to end this crazy discussion. The point is just to transfer the data as accurately as possible at the price point the device exists.

 

[levimax]

Amir, can you record some music samples played through the totalDAC and another DAC that measures better and let people download them and try to ABX them ? I think results would be interesting.