Review and Measurements of Totaldac d1-six DAC

[luisma]

I believe that a good power supply is needed in some cases.
But from what i saw until now 1mv ripple noise is more then enough.
Going for microvolt with thousands dollars is again crazy.
In every aspect there's always snake oil on top the chain.

I can only speak for my experience, Pro-ject S2 DAC connected to Yamaha AS2100 integrated, Klipsch P27 speakers. Powering the DAC through USB or SMPS vs powering the DAC with Uptone LPS1.2, soundstage is incredibly better with the LPS vs original SMPS or USB power, Fleetwood Mac - Seven Wonders bongos / drums sound completely different using the same source PC NUC running Roon Rock, this was years ago my system is completely different now) My point the ripple effect yes you can measure but there other things "you don't see" but there are.

For example I used to do Radio enhancement for buildings, still do (skyrises and such) public safety / 1st responders systems for the police, fire department and swat)
Radio amplification is done through single mode fiber options, if I ask you what noise do you find with fiber optics what would you say? if you attach a fiber options measuring equipment to a fiber what would you see?
Let me try to clue you (and bait you in) you will see a laser transmitting 850nm wavelenght give or take, nothing else on the fiber correct? it is just digital, no noise or anything noticeable?
not trying to argue with you just post my experiences

 

[daftcombo]

You may be right that some / many products are adding things which at the end were not « in the record » itself. I have always liked Naim products which are controversial in some forums. But it is what it is, I perceive more dynamic and I have more fun with them.
As I have always used solid state amps, I have no opinion or experience vs tubes.
When it comes to RME ADI2 which I like, it happens that I have spent a full afternoon listening to music with Focal Utopia headphones (using Roon and a list of music I know very well) while reading a book. The experience was nice, music was good, very precise. Then I moved to my Chord Hugo2 and the experience was different, still very precise but such a fun! - I was just enjoying the music better. Same source, same music, same headphones, same day. It was not a blind test, but I didn’t expect it neither and frankly the respective price didn’t come into play contrarily to what some people repeatedly say in that forum.
Then the same music on the TotalDac + Vivid Giya 3, again something else. The same music for sure, but I could almost « see / feel » the musicians because rythm and 3D location are so good. I am sharing it again because it is based on an experience of listening. Is there a bias?maybe. But I am in mathematics by education, and science by profession. Why in my listening be the biais for price be bigger than the one for measurements now that I know the results thanks to Amir and Audioscience? I respect the measures and for sure the outcomes also guide me in acquiring some products (eg RME, Massdrop THX782, JDS Labs O2), but I know as well that I am not listening via an oscilloscope. So measures are not the only element which are important - your personal experience listening to the music and especially records you know is even more important.

There are a few, I would not even say "records", but songs, less than ten, that I know very well, listened to hundreds of times and use when I want to hear what a pair of headphones or a stereo system is doing. Those are not "audiophile" songs by any mean.

Except when I listen to them with IEM in the underground, I always have the same pleasure and "emotion" with them, whatever DAC or speakers play them. When I listen loud with nice headphones in a quiet room, I sure hear more things but it is of intellectual interest. The SPL, the speakers, their placement and where I am are way more important factors giving me details or not, than the DAC or amp.

 

[daftcombo]

I can only speak for my experience, Pro-ject S2 DAC connected to Yamaha AS2100 integrated, Klipsch P27 speakers. Powering the DAC through USB or SMPS vs powering the DAC with Uptone LPS1.2, soundstage is incredibly better with the LPS vs original SMPS or USB power, Fleetwood Mac - Seven Wonders bongos / drums sound completely different using the same source PC NUC running Roon Rock, this was years ago my system is completely different now) My point the ripple effect yes you can measure but there other things "you don't see" but there are.

Interesting experience. Do you mean that you couldn't measure the difference but heard it?

 

[KSTR]

Would anybody call a RME Adi-2 Pro a piece of junk just because it offers a NOS emulation and then also measures a bad as real filterless NOS-DAC, using the typical set of measurements? Also, we know that once the HF-rolloff is corrected for, most people don't notice any difference between NOS mode and the more technically correct standard filter modes.

@FredYves, which exact RME model to you own? If its a RME Adi-2 Pro, you could try the following very revealing test:
Set it up in AD/DA ("Preamp") Standalone Mode, so that it takes the output of the TotalDAC, converts it to digital an back, using proper reference level setting (and 0dB volume setting) that it does neither clip nor run on too low signal levels, and use a higher sample rate like 192kHz (filter settings don't matter much at that sample rate). Basically a 1:1 buffer application.
Then compare this to the TotalDAC.
I helped someone in doing this test and to his surprise the RME was capable to pass through "the full magic" of his beloved NOS-DAC. Which in turn means the RME is fully transparent.

 

[luisma]

Interesting experience. Do you mean that you couldn't measure the difference but heard it?

Answering your question, yes, I could hear the difference but I could not measure it. Wife she is a pianist, professional pianist, she could hear that too and confirmed the same appreciation without biasing. Did it sounded better? I don't think so. Did it sounded better to my ears because of the soundstage and EQ arrangement for that specific song? definitely yes. Will it sound best with other songs? I don't know actually.

 

[FredYves]

Hey Fred, with all due respect and believe me I truly respect your opinion it may be "biased" by the DAC, I actually don't know as I don't have the means to get such DAC, but there is nothing wrong about it and that is my point. Equipment Synergy might be another one.

Ok, let's start from the beginning, which pre amp / amp you have? which speakers?

I have already replied to another person but happy to repeat.

TotalDac is connected to the Amp, which is most of the time an AVM SA8.2, then to Vivid Giya G3. I also own a pre from AVM, the PA8. Difference with or without pre are minimal.

I also connected the TotalDac to stereo amp made by James Romeyn using Hypex NCore.

Now these stereo amps based on Hypex NCore are used in a second system and room, where I am listening to AV or multi-channel audio. Source are bluray or SACD multi-channel, through Oppo 105d and more recently Pioneer LX500. Loudspeakers (4+1 central) are JM Reynaud Abscisse, and I am using 3 stereo amps based on Hypex NCore. After I definitively preferred TotalDac to RME ADI and Chord based on days of listening on my main system, the RME and Chord are used in that system for stereo music and headphones as well.

 

[luisma]

Would anybody call a RME Adi-2 Pro a piece of junk just because it offers a NOS emulation and then also measures a bad as real filterless NOS-DAC, using the typical set of measurements? Also, we know that once the HF-rolloff is corrected for, most people don't notice any difference between NOS mode and the more technically correct standard filter modes.

I haven't heard the DAC but I'm eyeing it for testing, I would like very much to listen to it. I would not call it a piece of junk no.

And yes I'm looking forward to audition "that specific DAC"

 

[KSTR]

The FFT gain can be as much 30 to 40 dB!

To put some number on this, the FFT processing gain is 10*log(N/2), N being the number of points.
Some 57.2dB for a 1M FFT. When you have a flat noise floor spectrally, this means the RMS value of the noise is 57dB higher than the FFT noise floor.
Now do some 10000 rounds of time-domain averaging before FFT to add another 40dB and you can resolve signals more than 80dB below the RMS noise floor...

 

[luisma]

TotalDac is connected to the Amp, which is most of the time an AVM SA8.2, then to Vivid Giya G3. I also own a pre from AVM, the PA8. Difference with or without pre are minimal.

I'm sorry, you are correct you answered that already, I overlooked.

I also connected the TotalDac to stereo amp made by James Romeyn using Hypex NCore.

Jim is a friend of mine, he is an accomplished musician and speaker / electronics manufacturer, very very knowledgeable.

Now these stereo amps based on Hypex NCore are used in a second system and room, where I am listening to AV or multi-channel audio. Source are bluray or SACD multi-channel, through Oppo 105d and more recently Pioneer LX500. Loudspeakers (4+1 central) are JM Reynaud Abscisse, and I am using 3 stereo amps based on Hypex NCore. After I definitively preferred TotalDac to RME ADI and Chord based on days of listening on my main system, the RME and Chord are used in that system for stereo music and headphones as well.

Ok so your system is solid state completely, allow me to do some searching and look at impedances etc. You are using the balanced connections on the AVM and I presume unbalanced on the Hypex built by Jim correct?

 

[daftcombo]

I haven't heard the DAC but I'm eyeing it for testing, I would like very much to listen to it. I would not call it a piece of junk no.

And yes I'm looking forward to audition "that specific DAC"

Calling totalDac a "piece of junk" would be like calling a horse a "piece of junk" now that we have cars - which have been measured going faster.

 

[diegooo1972]

@luisma
The uptone after all costs 300. I think it's not needed but we are still in the range of some dignity price for a well builded, and measurable, power supply.
And every decent dac must already have some current filtering circuits when it don't come with a very good power supply.
I still bet for 1mv ripple noise limit.
I'm also sure i'm not able to hear the difference in any case.
In the end I prefer to have a very clean DAC, more then I can hear, and chose my sound signature from speakers where is very well marked.
After all I'll get emotions out of the kind of music I hear and not only from the audio chain.
Or it became an exercise in style.

 

[FredYves]

Would anybody call a RME Adi-2 Pro a piece of junk just because it offers a NOS emulation and then also measures a bad as real filterless NOS-DAC, using the typical set of measurements? Also, we know that once the HF-rolloff is corrected for, most people don't notice any difference between NOS mode and the more technically correct standard filter modes.

@FredYves, which exact RME model to you own? If its a RME Adi-2 Pro, you could try the following very revealing test:
Set it up in AD/DA ("Preamp") Standalone Mode, so that it takes the output of the TotalDAC, converts it to digital an back, using proper reference level setting (and 0dB volume setting) that it does neither clip nor run on too low signal levels, and use a higher sample rate like 192kHz (filter settings don't matter much at that sample rate). Basically a 1:1 buffer application.
Then compare this to the TotalDAC.
I helped someone in doing this test and to his surprise the RME was capable to pass through "the full magic" of his beloved NOS-DAC. Which in turn means the RME is fully transparent.

I own an RME ADI2. I bought it. I like it and I didn’t send it back. I do prefer the TotalDac. But for me it is not an issue at all. RME ADI as a DAC + headphone amp is very very good. I am using it for that purpose now in a second system. When a friend asks me for advice for a very good DAC around 1000€, ADI2 is my strong recommendation. I preferred it towards the Naim and Linn I had in the past. Now, I am sorry for that as it is not aligned with the measurements at audioscience, but I prefer a bit the Chord Hugo2 to the ADI2, and the TotalDac to both. And I am very relaxed and fine with that.

I am just sharing that because I truly believe that measurements cannot capture everything.

I am also astonished with the bad measurements of TotalDac, and I would have expected better from Vincent Brient (this guy is no joke but an experienced engineer). And I do hope that some discussions will happen with Amir. I know from the French forums that Vincent is a bit touched with that, and I hope it will be a good technical conversations and not too much emotions.

 

[KSTR]

I am also astonished with the bad measurements of TotalDac, and I would have expected better from Vincent Brient (this guy is no joke but an experienced engineer). And I do hope that some discussions will happen with Amir.

Well, the bad looking measurements (especially the THD+N vs frequency) are intrinsic to any filterless NOS DAC even if pretty much prefectly executed as in the TotalDac (as shown by eg the linearity measurement).
Measuring a filterless NOS DAC with standard techniques can quickly lead to unexpected and misleading results, that's for sure.

 

[luisma]

@luisma
The uptone after all costs 300. I think it's not needed but we are still in the range of some dignity price for a well builded, and measurable, power supply.
And every decent dac must already have some current filtering circuits when it don't come with a very good power supply.
I still bet for 1mv ripple noise limit.
I'm also sure i'm not able to hear the difference in any case.
In the end I prefer to have a very clean DAC, more then I can hear, and chose my sound signature from speakers where is very well marked.
After all I'll get emotions out of the kind of music I hear and not only from the audio chain.
Or it became an exercise in style.

I respect that, each one we pick our poisson

 

[luisma]

I own an RME ADI2. I bought it. I like it and I didn’t send it back. I do prefer the TotalDac. But for me it is not an issue at all. RME ADI as a DAC + headphone amp is very very good. I am using it for that purpose now in a second system. When a friend asks me for advice for a very good DAC around 1000€, ADI2 is my strong recommendation. I preferred it towards the Naim and Linn I had in the past. Now, I am sorry for that as it is not aligned with the measurements at audioscience, but I prefer a bit the Chord Hugo2 to the ADI2, and the TotalDac to both. And I am very relaxed and fine with that.

I am just sharing that because I truly believe that measurements cannot capture everything.

I am also astonished with the bad measurements of TotalDac, and I would have expected better from Vincent Brient (this guy is no joke but an experienced engineer). And I do hope that some discussions will happen with Amir. I know from the French forums that Vincent is a bit touched with that, and I hope it will be a good technical conversations and not too much emotions.

Let me throw a wrench into all this have you tried HQPlayer DSD Direct to the RME? that might change your mind

 

[luisma]

I am also astonished with the bad measurements of TotalDac, and I would have expected better from Vincent Brient (this guy is no joke but an experienced engineer). And I do hope that some discussions will happen with Amir. I know from the French forums that Vincent is a bit touched with that, and I hope it will be a good technical conversations and not too much emotions.

I do too, I have a friend who manufactures speakers and so many times people have tried to discredit him and I haven't seen ONE instance he hasn't emerged victorious over the detractors. I would not expect less from Vincent.
Disclaimer, I'm not calling AMIR a detractor, he is very factual and that's why we are all here .... just that his measurement basically discord with Vincent's

 

[totaldac]

Measuring a filterless NOS DAC with standard techniques can quickly lead to unexpected and misleading results, that's for sure.

Happy to hear that.
Amir discovered the strairs of a NOS DAC on a scope for the first time?

 

[totaldac]

Where did you get this method? AES-17 standard calls for -60 dB, not -120 dB. And that is for dynamic range measurements. Standard measurements of distortion call for 0 dBFS (or thereabouts), not -120 dB which is at the limit of a 20 bit signal. By using such small signal, you made sure that the harmonic distortion was buried in the noise, causing confusion which I addressed my repeat of your measurement.

I gave a result of a laboratory noise optimisation (ususally difficult with a discrete R2R DAC), not a standard AES method.

You think in your head like a standard measurement technician.
I think in my head like a R&D engineer (and optimiser by listening tests).
We won't agree, we don't make measurements with the same aim.

 

[amirm]

I am just sharing that because I truly believe that measurements cannot capture everything.

Measurements capture everything you could tell in controlled, blind tests. They cannot by definition predict subjective listening tests conducted outside of the realm of audio science. You wouldn't ask an atheist to swear on a bible that God doesn't exist! Let's not mix religions here.

I am also astonished with the bad measurements of TotalDac, and I would have expected better from Vincent Brient (this guy is no joke but an experienced engineer). And I do hope that some discussions will happen with Amir. I know from the French forums that Vincent is a bit touched with that, and I hope it will be a good technical conversations and not too much emotions.

A lot of these boutique DACs are complicated designs. As such I am not questioning the electrical engineering skills of the person who designed them.

What we question is taking audiophile myths as gospel, and running after checklist after checklist to satisfy them, high-fidelity experience be damned.

As to Vincent being touched, he can counter with his measurements to the contrary. Or controlled listening tests validating the efficacy of the design. If neither exists, then his feelings being hurt for chasing marketing ideas in high-end audio can't be our concern. We exist to bring sanity to high-fidelity audio.

 

[totaldac]

Measuring a filterless NOS DAC with standard techniques can quickly lead to unexpected and misleading results, that's for sure.

It is a key point, and there are other such key points in the Totaldac DAC making it difficult to measure, or leading to unexpected problems.