If you think that a difference in nanoseconds makes difference in audible sound, I have a bridge to sell.
They are twisting the tests to show differences, regardless of those differences matter or not.
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Cable measurement
- Thread starter Vhond
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They are twisting the tests to show differences, regardless of those differences matter or not.
boxerfan88
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Wow ... so quick to judge. I have my own opinion. For myself, I am waiting to see the test results.
ps: please don't attack me personally! i am not the one doing the test!!
pps: i shared the video as it relates to this topic. if not happy that i shared the video, please complain to the mods -- Mods can remove my posts if deemed inappropriate. Mods can tell me why and warn me or ban me if i have broken the rules here.
ps: please don't attack me personally! i am not the one doing the test!!
pps: i shared the video as it relates to this topic. if not happy that i shared the video, please complain to the mods -- Mods can remove my posts if deemed inappropriate. Mods can tell me why and warn me or ban me if i have broken the rules here.
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I've seen no one attack you. Yes, such BS as this can be judged immediately. Sorry if you don't like it. No one wants you banned. If you don't understand why this can be immediately dismissed then you have a good learning opportunity. We don't need to wait on the tests results because the test being done is about as relevant to cable sound as measuring the barometric pressure of different cables. If he did proper listening tests and he had results that would be surprising and interesting. Seeing how he is measuring electrically I expect the same kind of lame apples to oranges methodology.
You may be taking the reactions personally, and I'm quite sure no one wants you warned or banned.
The issue with this kind of video and accompanying story, is that it is completely predictable and provides no useful information relevant to audio. In fact, it counts on people not really understanding what they are looking at.
The reason this kind of nonsense gets the visceral reaction such as you saw here may be that cables and interconnects especially are where people truly get ripped off.
This site doesn't make much room for those espousing sillyness. We would much rather help people understand why they can just as confidently dismiss this nonsense as those who responded to you in this thread.
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I hope you don't get me wrong and I can tell you some example. To measure some device in few hundred MHz or GHz, whenever cables are changed, we need calibration to compensate the difference of cables even if all cables are from same provider on the same date. In case, we need to measure 10 ports, only calibration itself can be all day work. So it's not surprising there are differences between speaker cables from different provider which are produced for only up to few tens of kHz when those are measured in this freqeuncy range.
Speedskater
Major Contributor
Duh!
The best Gigahertz cables make poor audio cables.
The best audio cables make poor Gigahertz cables.
The best Gigahertz cables make poor audio cables.
The best audio cables make poor Gigahertz cables.
boxerfan88
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Okay I got it. Next time I won't post such videos here...
boxerfan88
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I'm with you on the theory (I do have EE background) that in the MHz or GHz arena the cable material, construction, termination impact on the signal can be pretty visible. And in the audio band, likelyhood very little to no impact.
On my side, I am actually looking forward to the tests and "their analysis" and "conclusions" ... to see how it gets presented.
Unfortunately from the initial reactions here it's not something welcome here ... I shall stop here ... and follow that video offline...
Peace!
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So I watched the video. The guy seems to have some decent RF test equipment but is looking at things that are unrealistic (to say the least) for audio. For example, using a 2 ns pulse to measure audio cables, bearing in mind the period of a 20 kHz sine wave is 50 us (25,000 times longer) and looking at TDR responses. Near the beginning, he seems surprised that an open cable exhibits a reflection, although that is normal for an open (or shorted) cable. There are numerous other little glitches throughout the video that to me imply a lack of knowledge and application of the tools. Besides using RF signals to test audio cables at frequencies well beyond (orders of magnitude) what they are required to pass, using things like the 1 GHz Tek '7104 (a decent 'scope) is not really the right 'scope for testing audio-frequency cables. A different 'scope with much higher resolution would be much better, albeit with lower bandwidth. A 100 MHz 14- or 16-bit 'scope would be more likely to show differences in the audio band. A network analyzer rather than an LCR meter would provide a better look at the impedance, though he may want to shift the reference plane by saving the raw data and post-processing it appropriately. And so forth. I have no doubt he'll see a lot of differences among cables, but at frequencies so far above audio that it obfuscates any real audio-related data. Hopefully he'll work with an engineer to refine the test setup and methodology before doing the real tests.
@boxerfan88 : You said you have an EE degree, yes? Do you know this guy or company, could you help them out? As many have said, the reaction here is not directed at you at all, it just seems like another ill-conceived study by someone who needs some help conducting practical cable measurements for audio systems. It will be interesting to see the results, though I hope the measurements follow the listening tests to avoid biasing the results.
@boxerfan88 : You said you have an EE degree, yes? Do you know this guy or company, could you help them out? As many have said, the reaction here is not directed at you at all, it just seems like another ill-conceived study by someone who needs some help conducting practical cable measurements for audio systems. It will be interesting to see the results, though I hope the measurements follow the listening tests to avoid biasing the results.
DonR
Major Contributor
In other news, Ferraris do poorly in hill climbs and Jeeps don't handle twisty roads too well.
boxerfan88
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Unfortunately I don't know the guy. I think he is in Europe, a few thousand km away.
I chanced upon the video in my Youtube feed this morning, and I was wrong to post about it here. I know better now...
And yes, I am also waiting to see the "analysis" and "results/conclusions"...
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I apologize if I came on too strong in my reply. Though it was honest.
My question to you, especially if you have an EE background, is why you are waiting for "analysis and results/conclusions"? I'm not trying to insult you or paint you as having ideas we won't tolerate around here. I'm just wondering what is it you think could result? The tests seem wrong-headed, and so I don't hold out much hope for any useful results or conclusions. I'm curious as to why you would think something useful will result. What am I missing?
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I get a bit suspicious of such test ? these are solved matters since the Bell labs era era ?
There are many such attempts over the years and the testers are often extremely biased, they are actually trying really hard to find justifications for their beliefs rather than a proper test . So OP did no wrong but many users on this fora get's the " uh oh not again " sinking felling ( add facepalms to taste )
There really are a shedload of cable treads all the time ? It's cluttering the forum .
I get the " oh no not another cable tread " sinking feeling
if one search's we have a ton of info and old treads to resurect for further question .The last thing ASR needs IMO is another cable tread .
There is some fun in reacting to poorly done hairbrained YouTube audiophiles shenanigans'
but its also gives them exposure and clicks and plays of their stuff ?So if the BS radar tingles one should not give them clicks , it actually helps them even if you look at the video for laugh's ?
We also see people link to PS audio or GR research's latest comic's all the time in this forum ?
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I believe there should be bunch of proof like this..
"Conclusions
So, what do you get for your money with 'premium' speaker cables? Quite obviously, very little improvement is afforded by any of these cables over another - 12 gauge zip cable is cheap and easy to make into a speaker lead, Jon's cable is a little more expensive, and there is a fair amount of work involved, and the Goertz cable will set you back about US$200 a pair for 4 metre lengths (and maybe make your amplifier oscillate). Naturally, you can spend a great deal more (and still make the amp oscillate), but I don't see much point.
If it makes you feel better to have sexy looking cross-connected coax leads, then far be it for me to attempt to deny you that pleasure, besides, it might be fun to do (which is far more important). I still can't recommend the Goertz cable, as its capacitance is just too high. A Zobel tames that, but I would be reluctant to use it anyway, and I certainly wouldn't pay their prices for it!
In general, a 'bog standard' Zobel network consisting of a 10Ω resistor and 100nF capacitor in series should be standard, wired internally at the terminals of any loudspeaker. Most cables don't need it, but it does no harm. While these standard values represent a mismatch with most basic or 'exotic' cables, it's not a problem. This has been shown quite clearly in the above response graphs - there are always anomalies if the cable is mismatched, but none of the cables simulated showed any sign that they could make any amp oscillate, regardless of their actual characteristic impedance."
The Web has a great many examples of over-the-top cable pricing (although some are a lot cheaper than others), claims and mistakes. This is not to single out any manufacturer - it is simply to point out that a great many examples can be found of 'high-end' cables with claims that cannot be substantiated by DBT listening test or simulation. There are so many that they are too numerous to mention, but with very, very few exceptions, no-one will ever hear a difference in a properly conducted blind test.
Decisions, decisions .... (or perhaps not )."
sound-au.com
"Conclusions
So, what do you get for your money with 'premium' speaker cables? Quite obviously, very little improvement is afforded by any of these cables over another - 12 gauge zip cable is cheap and easy to make into a speaker lead, Jon's cable is a little more expensive, and there is a fair amount of work involved, and the Goertz cable will set you back about US$200 a pair for 4 metre lengths (and maybe make your amplifier oscillate). Naturally, you can spend a great deal more (and still make the amp oscillate), but I don't see much point.
If it makes you feel better to have sexy looking cross-connected coax leads, then far be it for me to attempt to deny you that pleasure, besides, it might be fun to do (which is far more important). I still can't recommend the Goertz cable, as its capacitance is just too high. A Zobel tames that, but I would be reluctant to use it anyway, and I certainly wouldn't pay their prices for it!
In general, a 'bog standard' Zobel network consisting of a 10Ω resistor and 100nF capacitor in series should be standard, wired internally at the terminals of any loudspeaker. Most cables don't need it, but it does no harm. While these standard values represent a mismatch with most basic or 'exotic' cables, it's not a problem. This has been shown quite clearly in the above response graphs - there are always anomalies if the cable is mismatched, but none of the cables simulated showed any sign that they could make any amp oscillate, regardless of their actual characteristic impedance."
The Web has a great many examples of over-the-top cable pricing (although some are a lot cheaper than others), claims and mistakes. This is not to single out any manufacturer - it is simply to point out that a great many examples can be found of 'high-end' cables with claims that cannot be substantiated by DBT listening test or simulation. There are so many that they are too numerous to mention, but with very, very few exceptions, no-one will ever hear a difference in a properly conducted blind test.
Decisions, decisions .... (or perhaps not )."
Loudspeaker Cable Characteristic Impedance
What is the effect of the characteristic impedance of a loudspeaker cable? Is it important to match the cable to the speaker load impedance, or is this simply a marketing ploy?
nobody was judging you. I did not. I however am very skeptical of alpha-audio. This is not the first time they try to promote pseudo science non sense, especially when it comes to cables. they are snake oil believers who trying to undermine science/use fake science to confirm their bias
Every single test Alpha Audio has done is exactly the same; measuring differences that are totally irrelevant to audio and claiming correlation to their "listening test".
They're the very definition of pseudoscientists.
I don't think posting the video is an issue per se. It means the video gets linked to this ASR resource, which means more people can find ASR and topics such as these, explaining why these kinds of tests are invalid (or not).
Yes, it may get the video makers some more views, but it will also get ASR more views. In the end, we should not pretend these videos do not exist and stick our heads in the sand. Especially if the video is of the kind where science is abused to prove something it can't do.
As for "such a video": what is that definition? I have no idea. Generally, you can find issues with any video posted, some more than others... Where is the boundary?
In any case, it is appreciated to put a small tl;dr on the video post, so people don't need to view the whole video to later find out they would have not watched it if they knew. You basically did that, so good! And we as a community may need to learn not to shoot the messenger (too much
).
boxerfan88
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Good question. The video displayed all the high quality gear that is going to be used in the measurement. All these high quality gear is about building some "credibility" which I can already see.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, with my EE background, my expectation is that the various reasonably well made line level or speaker cables when tested should measure "almost identical" to each other in the audio band therefore whatever differences that shows up in the audio band measurement should be so tiny that it's gonna be inaudible.
If power cords are tested, that's gonna be even more fun, because the operating band is even narrower (50-60Hz).
Now, my gut feel/speculation is that the "results/conclusion" of the tests might end up to be opposite of my expectations stated above. If this actually happens, I am just so curious to see how the "measurements" is going to be used to explain/support the "results/conclusion". I find it fascinating to learn how scientific information can be "twisted" to support some of these "interesting" narratives.
Having said all of the above, I still want to keep an open mind just in case some new information or new insight comes out of the tests (which I doubt).
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