Can we imitate loudness dial?

[alaios]

Hi all I know this is not a popular topic
but If I have treble and bass dials cant I immitate loundness control? Is not loudness control boosting bass and treble at low volumes? If yes what can be starting dial point?
Regards
Alex

 

[Count Arthur]

Here's how it's implemented in RME DACs:

I'm not sure whether this is the same on older amps with a loudness button, or whether this digital implementation is more sophisticated, but you can see that the level of boost varies according to the level of attenuation. In addition, the bass boost is below 200Hz and the treble boost above 1kHz. Where those points are with your bass and treble controls might be quite different.

 

[AlfaNovember]

Yes, in principle, you can emulate the function of the Loudness control with the bass and the treble controls. However - a well implemented Loudness will boost with shelving filters at particular frequencies - 70 Hz for the low, 3500 for the high in the case of the CamillaDSP implementation - and will apply gain to those shelves proportionate to the overall volume. Which is to say - very quiet volume, lots of loudness boost. Turn up the overall volume, and the shelves shouldn't be quite as heavily boosted. When the overall volume gets to a nominal "loud enough" baseline - 83 dB or so - the filter stops applying boost entirely.

Therefore, there are two problems with using bass & treble controls - One, the shelving frequencies chosen by the manufacturer for the tone controls may not align well with the desired loudness shelves. Second, adjusting the correct amount of T&B boost as a function of overall volume would be finicky and virtually impossible to duplicate consistently day after day, short of building yourself a chart and painting calibration marks on your knobs.

 

[Chrispy]

Depends on your gear and what it does particularly....what is it?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

It depends. -What equipment do you have?

This is treble/bass knob settings from a Yamaha A-S1000-->

 

[alaios]

Here's how it's implemented in RME DACs:

View attachment 342064
I'm not sure whether this is the same on older amps with a loudness button, or whether this digital implementation is more sophisticated, but you can see that the level of boost varies according to the level of attenuation. In addition, the bass boost is below 200Hz and the treble boost above 1kHz. Where those points are with your bass and treble controls might be quite different.

How this works with subwoofers? So if we have a sub connected to subwoofer out?

 

[alaios]

Yes, in principle, you can emulate the function of the Loudness control with the bass and the treble controls. However - a well implemented Loudness will boost with shelving filters at particular frequencies - 70 Hz for the low, 3500 for the high in the case of the CamillaDSP implementation - and will apply gain to those shelves proportionate to the overall volume. Which is to say - very quiet volume, lots of loudness boost. Turn up the overall volume, and the shelves shouldn't be quite as heavily boosted. When the overall volume gets to a nominal "loud enough" baseline - 83 dB or so - the filter stops applying boost entirely.

Therefore, there are two problems with using bass & treble controls - One, the shelving frequencies chosen by the manufacturer for the tone controls may not align well with the desired loudness shelves. Second, adjusting the correct amount of T&B boost as a function of overall volume would be finicky and virtually impossible to duplicate consistently day after day, short of building yourself a chart and painting calibration marks on your knobs.

so is a cheap mans man loundness control button. I think listening to music at low volumes when family is sleeping is very important

 

[alaios]

Yes, in principle, you can emulate the function of the Loudness control with the bass and the treble controls. However - a well implemented Loudness will boost with shelving filters at particular frequencies - 70 Hz for the low, 3500 for the high in the case of the CamillaDSP implementation - and will apply gain to those shelves proportionate to the overall volume. Which is to say - very quiet volume, lots of loudness boost. Turn up the overall volume, and the shelves shouldn't be quite as heavily boosted. When the overall volume gets to a nominal "loud enough" baseline - 83 dB or so - the filter stops applying boost entirely.

Therefore, there are two problems with using bass & treble controls - One, the shelving frequencies chosen by the manufacturer for the tone controls may not align well with the desired loudness shelves. Second, adjusting the correct amount of T&B boost as a function of overall volume would be finicky and virtually impossible to duplicate consistently day after day, short of building yourself a chart and painting calibration marks on your knobs.

some REW measurements can show the "truth" then? One can remember where to put bass and treble dials to have this loudness effect then

 

[FrantzM]

Here's how it's implemented in RME DACs:

View attachment 342064
I'm not sure whether this is the same on older amps with a loudness button, or whether this digital implementation is more sophisticated, but you can see that the level of boost varies according to the level of attenuation. In addition, the bass boost is below 200Hz and the treble boost above 1kHz. Where those points are with your bass and treble controls might be quite different.

Hi

I'd like to see similar graphs for Audyssey Dynamic EQ. I like what it does, it has become for me, mandatory ... Strangely, listening though headphones or IEM , I don't feel the need for loudness compensation...
I resisted for a long time, but the RME is on my to-buy-soon list.

Peace.

 

[ZolaIII]

How this works with subwoofers? So if we have a sub connected to subwoofer out?

It doesn't (to my better knowledge on most devices that are primarily stereo, don't know about RME multichannel interfaces or Denon AVR's). You need software implementation and multichannel interface/sound card or DSP for distribution. EQ-APO and JRiver have ISO 226 2003 loudness implemented.

 

[alaios]

Ok so loundness is more for 2.0 systems, for 2.1 and 2.2 will lead to weird results....

 

[Count Arthur]

I resisted for a long time, but the RME is on my to-buy-soon list.

On the RME, you can also adjust some of the parameters of the loudness function - within limits.

My main wish is for an RME DAC with an additional 5 or 10 PEQ bands.

Strangely, listening though headphones or IEM , I don't feel the need for loudness compensation...

It's designed for speakers at low volume, when listening to headphones or IEM, you're not likely to disturb anyone else, so you don't need to listen at low volume, surely?

 

[ZolaIII]

Ok so loundness is more for 2.0 systems, for 2.1 and 2.2 will lead to weird results....

No it's for full range FR but doesn't translate to line out/sub out on most stereo implementations up to date. So you have to do it elsewhere and that it does to full FR in any configuration that is more than 2.0 stereo.
You can create cuple of presets for usual SPL levels you intend to listen at and switch them accordingly.

 

[somebodyelse]

Ok so loundness is more for 2.0 systems, for 2.1 and 2.2 will lead to weird results....

Depends how your 2.1 or 2.2 system is implemented.

 

[coonmanx]

A ten band graphic equalizer is an easy way to build your own loudness control. A little more flexible than just using bass and treble controls. But yeah, you can do what you like at low volume with the bass and treble controls and see what you think.

 

[alaios]

Depends how your 2.1 or 2.2 system is implemented.

so two subs connected via a splitter to the sub out of the amplifier

 

[alaios]

A ten band graphic equalizer is an easy way to build your own loudness control. A little more flexible than just using bass and treble controls. But yeah, you can do what you like at low volume with the bass and treble controls and see what you think.

it was also for me almost to understand the "theory" so the basic dials are the bass and treble control and on top of those you build the loudness one (of course with some modifications)

 

[somebodyelse]

so two subs connected via a splitter to the sub out of the amplifier

You've not described your system yet, and it depends on the details. If the loudness and volume control happens before the amp input then it should be fine. If the loudness happens before the amp, but you use the amp's volume control then you need to adjust both to get something that sounds right. If your amp has pre-outs that loop back to the power stage you could use these for the loudness, but depending on where the sub out is connected you might need a 2-channel or 3-channel device to do process loudness.

 

[alaios]

My system is based ok leak 130 where I think the dials are part of the preamp part so my understanding is that my pseudo loudness effect would work on that integrated model

 

[Count Arthur]

There's nothing in the manual: https://www.leak-hifi.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/LEAK-STEREO-130-User-Manual-200115_R3.pdf

Unless it's specified by the manufacturer, as in the Yamaha A-S1000 manual Holdt showed above, the only way to know how the tone controls are implemented is to measure it. Something that might be a breeze for some people here that have the necessary know-how and equipment, but not exactly straight forward if you don't.