The pain of being a member of ASR

[Multicore]

I also think that the debate is not about honor. You can see exactly the same kind of behavior in other hobbies, where science was introduced, often conflicting with traditional wisdom.

Sorry, there's a few steps of argumentation that I completely glossed over that are needed to tie honor into my argument (#187). Lemmy see if I can fix that real quick.

History, anthropology and psychology recognize a pattern of human behavior in which conflict exists that, to that uninvolved observer, seems disproportionate to the issues being fought over (cf. schismogenesis and narcissism of small differences). Rel_g_on and pol_t_cs are forbidden on ASR so I chose the example of sports and sports fans. Let's consider sports like football (either version) a modern ritualized, relatively safe version of the ancient practices of single/team combat and such. Owing to some history there exists a schism that divides people into opposing sides of the fight. Such fights can go on for a very long time. I grew up in Glasgow so the Old Firm is a canonical example for me.

Someone who has been publicly involved in such a fight, either as combatant or cheering/jeering on the sidelines, could choose to switch sides or to abandon their involvement in the fight. But that could entail a significant loss of the individual's social capital. That's the honor I was talking about: the individual's personal subjective sense of their reputation built on fighting the fight thus far.

 

[MattHooper]

Yeah. Good of him to share his wisdom

Years ago I spent an ungodly amount of time debating creationists and IDers. I mostly put that behind me but I continue to find parallels in discussions with some golden eared audiophiles.

 

[fpitas]

Years ago I spent an ungodly amount of time debating creationists and IDers. I mostly put that behind me but I continue to find parallels in discussions with some golden eared audiophiles.

I suppose "You gotta believe!!!" might play a big part when confronted with expensive snake oil.

 

[DanielT]

About five years ago, a friend, the subjectivist, and I blindly tested speaker cables and two different amplifiers. Not level matched amps but more plug in and test at different volumes of these amps. However, without knowing which amp was which.

We heard no difference and at the time. I thought I would hear some difference between the amps, but nope. Speakers were some Amphion bookshelf speakers he had at the time. Streaming music source, Tidal (if I remember correctly, or if he had Spotify then) together with a DAC with volume control.

The amplifiers we tested were:

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/technics/su-v460.shtml

I had bought that amp for almost no money at all.

vs

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/copland/cta405.shtml

As my friend then had.

Despite the Copeland's relatively high distortion, we heard no difference.

Having said that, when I visit my friend now in winter and he uses some tube amp (with visible tubes), it feels cozy somehow. He is a tube amp nut, I might add. The coziness overflows and I imagine hearing that (cozy sound). Whether it's there or not I don't know, probably not but these tubes that glow in the dark have an ability to seduce.


My friend is now no longer a hardcore subjectivist when it comes to cables, but he still puts tube amps at the top of the audiophile level. That despite our test a few years ago, but I don't care about that. He can believe and think what he wants, he is still one of my best friends.

Edit:
Maybe his tube amps are distortion factories coupled with non-straight FRs that create an audible sound, which I appreciate the sound of when I listen to them at my friend's. My experiences can depend on so much. It's nice to visit my friend, anyway, and that's what matters.

Speaker cables, I don't remember which ones we used. Some generics vs some semi-expensive "audiophile" my friend bought used. Cables themselves don't interest me one bit, hence the memory loss.

 

[Anton D]

I suppose "You gotta believe!!!" might play a big part when confronted with expensive snake oil.

With modern gear, we are operating with performance below/better what a person could hear, but we reward the accomplishment. Not a bad thing, but is it a sign we've accomplished enough?

(I 'believe' it isn't, but that just makes me another kind of believer.)

 

[fpitas]

With modern gear, we are operating with performance below/better what a person could hear, but we reward the accomplishment. Not a bad thing, but is it a sign we've accomplished enough?

(I 'believe' it isn't, but that just makes me another kind of believer.)

I don't understand that either, but for different reasons.

 

[Multicore]

Having said that, when I visit my friend now in winter and he uses some tube amp (with visible tubes), it feels cozy somehow. He is a tube amp nut, I might add. The coziness overflows and I imagine hearing that. Whether it's there or not I don't know, probably not but these tubes that glow in the dark have an ability to seduce.

Just seeing photos of them here on ASR makes me feel cozy.

It's good to have experience like the one you describe. Since advertisers have been figuring out how this works for nearly a century it's good for us to have some appreciation for how subtle and powerful it can be.

My friend is now no longer a hardcore subjectivist when it comes to cables, but he still puts tube amps at the top of the audiophile level. That despite our test a few years ago, but I don't care about that. He can believe and think what he wants, he is still one of my best friends.

That's nice. @computer-audiophile here appears to love his tube amps like I love my dogs. Nothing wrong with either. I know my dogs are the best and I don't think your measurements can possibly prove otherwise ;-)

 

[Anton D]

I don't understand that either, but for different reasons.

OK by me.

 

[MattHooper]

My friend is now no longer a hardcore subjectivist when it comes to cables, but he still puts tube amps at the top of the audiophile level. That despite our test a few years ago, but I don't care about that. He can believe and think what he wants, he is still one of my best friends.
Maybe his tube amps are distortion factories coupled with non-straight FRs that create an audible sound, which I appreciate the sound of when I listen to them at my friend's. I do not know.

I've said before about my tube amps: Perhaps the warm 'n cozy sound is a placebo effect. But for me it's such a consistent effect, "working" for me over many years, I'm ok with it

 

[fpitas]

I've said before about my tube amps: Perhaps the warm 'n cozy sound is a placebo effect. But for me it's such a consistent effect, "working" for me over many years, I'm ok with it

I like the idea that the electrons are flying from cathode to anode. A hold out from my geeky childhood spent with tubes.

 

[Anton D]

I've said before about my tube amps: Perhaps the warm 'n cozy sound is a placebo effect. But for me it's such a consistent effect, "working" for me over many years, I'm ok with it

I wonder if this might 'color' how we select or playlists. We might self-select our preferred recordings to listen to based on what our systems are doing, or not.

 

[MRC01]

If they are strangers then I just smile and wish them well. If they are friends then we discuss it which is always engaging, and sometimes share listening sessions and examples which is even more fun.
BTW, it is not entirely one sided about green pens, power conditioners and cable lifts. There are also those who claim that 320k MP3 cannot be distinguished from the source, or that all CD players or DACs sound alike.

 

[BDWoody]

Years ago I spent an ungodly amount of time debating creationists and IDers. I mostly put that behind me but I continue to find parallels in discussions with some golden eared audiophiles.

Having grown up in a Cult, there are more parallels than many might think.

I know that feeling of comfort I had when surrounded by others with the same beliefs, and I know that feeling of almost panicked discomfort when confronted with questions for which there were no answers other than some version of 'faith.' It was later in my 20's when I left that environment, but before that time nothing anyone outside of that environment asked or said really had any impact on my beliefs. They were simply non-believers that would get theirs when the Great Tribulation came and blah blah blah...

You aren't allowed to question authority. Truth is revealed.
It's very expensive.
Meaningful interactions with those outside the group are discouraged.
I could go on and on, but it's the general unwillingness to even question the fundamental assumptions/beliefs that makes any kind of good faith (so to speak) dialog difficult.

It isn't limited to the uneducated. It really is an interesting thing to see from both sides.

 

[CarbonMakerU]

Good science should be absolute in it's conclusions which are both verifiable and repeatable. Life is just a whole lot more enjoyable and affordable when you actually accept that as fact. Unfortunately a lot of folks today are a little short on the actual "sciency" part of their beliefs on a whole variety of topics.

 

[DanielT]

Just seeing photos of them here on ASR makes me feel cozy.

It's good to have experience like the one you describe. Since advertisers have been figuring out how this works for nearly a century it's good for us to have some appreciation for how subtle and powerful it can be.


That's nice. @computer-audiophile here appears to love his tube amps like I love my dogs. Nothing wrong with either. I know my dogs are the best and I don't think your measurements can possibly prove otherwise ;-)

I've said before about my tube amps: Perhaps the warm 'n cozy sound is a placebo effect. But for me it's such a consistent effect, "working" for me over many years, I'm ok with it

Tube amps and distortion pleasing to the ears or not, a favorite topic at ASR. So may it be, but in the case mentioned we heard no difference between the amplifiers.

Having said that, IF you don't really hear any difference, why not have some tubes that glow nicely in the dark?
Expensive, of course, but that's relative. In addition old tube amps from well-known manufacturers seem to have a stable second-hand market. Buy and sell at the same price, more or less. It's just a test to see if it's something fun to have in the HiFi rig.
(advantage if one is knowledgeable in electronics if such old tube amps are to be bought, should be added)

 

[computer-audiophile]

I like the idea that the electrons are flying from cathode to anode. A hold out from my geeky childhood spent with tubes.

Yes, I'd like to provide another perspective on the exquisite sound of my SE triode amplifiers. The audio signal is initially charged to 1000 volts and, as it passes through the iron in the output transformers, it becomes magnetically captivating for the listener.

 

[Anton D]

Good science should be absolute in it's conclusions which are both verifiable and repeatable. Life is just a whole lot more enjoyable and affordable when you actually accept that as fact. Unfortunately a lot of folks today are a little short on the actual "sciency" part of their beliefs on a whole variety of topics.

I am with you, but science is not absolute. It's a method, not an endpoint! (Meant cheerfully.)

If we accepted 'science' as fact, we wouldn't be where we are now!

A great book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions#History

 

[Cote Dazur]

Recently, I've been reflecting on my engagement here on the forum. The discussions in some threads, marked by contentious debates and a focus on proving oneself right, have led me to reconsider my active participation. All too often the arguments are presented in an aggressive and personally hurtful manner.

As in that thread you started recently, you are not alone in reflecting on participating here on the forum. The aggressivity is getting too much. The "rightfulness" of so many members is getting annoying, not that what they are saying per se is not correct but in the perspective that there is so much more at play when listening to a whole sound system in a given room that just looking at the little speck of data, how ever objectively exact that data is. As if all that matter to them is to be "right".

I value the essence of the audiophile community and the shared joy and passion for the hobby. However, the current atmosphere in ASR has made me question where the true benefit and enjoyment lies

Their is indeed still a lot to learn and discover about our passion for HiFi, here at ASR, a lot to share, but, lately, the efforts to go trough all the rigorist diatribe, feels a lot more like going trough a jungle that a nice walk in the park. Is it worth the efforts, probably, but does it really has to be so unappealing? Ignore list can only be so long.

 

[Purité Audio]

I have been through many a trough at ASR.
Keith

 

[Multicore]

Having said that, IF you don't really hear any difference, why not have some tubes that glow nicely in the dark?

For my own case I think I answered that when I explained being a pragmatic antiaudiophile (#191). I'm more disposed to utility than decoration and have no interest (sentimental or otherwise) in vacuum tube technology. Even as an electric guitarist since the late 70s I always chose effects plus linear amps (better control). I grant tubes look cozy but that's no reason for me to replace my @Buckeye Amps NC252MP. For cozy I can get efficient decorative LEDs like this