Embracing Simplicity in Audio: Anyone Else Skipping Room Correction, Measurement Microphones, and the Like?

[Deleted member 21219]

Is this a Dr. Seuss reference?

Nope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

Jim

 

[mhardy6647]

Nope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

Jim

I actually did figure it was a reference to the half-dome earth model -- but I thought the model postulated a monoturtle. Wasn't aware of polyturtlism.

The notion of a stack of turtles, though, brought Yertle, the turtle king straight to mind.

 

[Mean & Green]

It's turtles all the way down.

I don’t see how that applies?

 

[Mart68]

DRC is a pretty recent thing and prior to that we had to evolve a skill set - knowing what would be a good room, furnishing and treating it for best effect, selecting a loudspeaker design that would suit the environment, setting up those speakers for best effect.

That's how we all did it for decades. I don't dispute that DRC is easier and in some circumstances more effective,.

I do dispute the idea that before it came along all systems had terrible problems and consequently did not sound good. It just was not the case.

Are all the hardcore advocates for DRC youngsters? That would make some sense to me.

Youngster - under 45

 

[Purité Audio]

DRC is a pretty recent thing and prior to that we had to evolve a skill set - knowing what would be a good room, furnishing and treating it for best effect, selecting a loudspeaker design that would suit the environment, setting up those speakers for best effect.

That's how we all did it for decades. I don't dispute that DRC is easier and in some circumstances more effective,.

I do dispute the idea that before it came along all systems had terrible problems and consequently did not sound good. It just was not the case.

Are all the hardcore advocates for DRC youngsters? That would make some sense to me.

Youngster - under 45

I agree years ago if you purchased a pair of loudspeakers whose bass extension excited the room, your options were to shuffle the speakers away from the wall vainly trying to find the quarter wave cancellation of the ‘boom’ or you sold the loudspeakers and bought a smaller pair whose more limited bass extension didn’t excite the room.
But why on earth would one do that now when it is possible to enjoy a completely full-range loudspeaker with no overhang, no boom that just doesn’t make sense to me unless you really hate bass, or solely listen to girl and guitar.
Keith

 

[computer-audiophile]

Good morning

Our next set of nearfield monitors in our two private study rooms will probably be equipped with some kind of room correction. Maybe something like the MA1 system from Neumann or the like. But that will probably be a few years down the line.

However, such an investment is not on the cards, as the monitors we are using there now are still quite new. I might even get into trouble with my wife this time if I were to suggest it.

And I certainly won't be giving up my "big sound system" with record player, tubes and horns in our media room.

In the meantime, I'm going to find out more and take my time to look at different solutions. I've also spoken to my neighbour who has a recording studio. If you really want to make the room correction perfect and not perhaps even create a few new problems, you're opening a big can of worms.

 

[DanielT]

Good morning

Our next set of nearfield monitors in our two private study rooms will probably be equipped with some kind of room correction. Maybe something like the MA1 system from Neumann or the like. But that will probably be a few years down the line.

However, such an investment is not on the cards, as the monitors we are using there now are still quite new. I might even get into trouble with my wife this time if I were to suggest it.

And I certainly won't be giving up my "big sound system" with record player tubes and horns in our media room.

In the meantime, I'm going to find out more and take my time to look at different solutions. I've also spoken to my neighbour who has a recording studio. If you really want to make the room correction perfect and not perhaps even create a few new problems, you're opening a big can of worms.

I'm a bit curious, do you have or have you had an amplifier with loudness functionality? If so, did you use the feature or not? And why did you or didn't you use that feature?

 

[computer-audiophile]

I'm a bit curious, do you have or have you had an amplifier with loudness functionality? If so, did you use the feature or not?

Yes, I happened to have a lot of amplifiers that were well equipped with tone controls. At the moment I still have a Yamaha A-S700, which has a variable loudness-EQ control. I don't normally use this amplifier as I like my valve amplifiers better. No tone controls so far. I also don't use any EQ in my player software, for example. I mostly listen at a fairly even volume.

 

[DanielT]

Yes, I happened to have a lot of amplifiers that were well equipped with tone controls. At the moment I still have a Yamaha A-S700, which has a variable loudness-EQ control. I don't normally use this amplifier as I like my valve amplifiers better. No tone controls so far. I also don't use any EQ in my player software, for example. I mostly listen at a fairly even volume.

Okay, but then, probably out of pure curiosity, you have still tested the loudness functionality when you used, for example, your YAMAHA A-S700? And after that, what? Did you not switch on the loudness functionality any more, if so why?

I use the loudness functionality when playing at low volume IF I remember to turn the function on.
Or I know that I will be listening at a low volume for a short time, then I ignore turning on the loudness function. Unnecessary then, that is to say.

 

[olieb]

If you really want to make the room correction perfect and not perhaps even create a few new problems, you're opening a big can of worms.

I would say, the moment you put a speaker in a room the can of worms is already wide open. Even if the "chain" is a mp3-player and a Tivoli.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Did you not switch on the loudness functionality any more, if so why?

It doesn't suit my listening habits. It would have the strongest effect if you listen very quietly. I don't do that, as I said, I listen fairly evenly at room volume or sometimes a little louder.

 

[sigbergaudio]

As I see it, DRC is the simple solution. Sure, make alterations to the room, or rearrange it's contents if that's practical, but it's often not the case. And DRC makes life so much easier if you ever need to relocate your stuff to another space. Implementing it can be as simple as buying an AVR and following the on-screen instructions.

Buying an AVR and following the on-screen instructions can result in horrible sound.

It's completely true that a lot of audiophiles with their "high end" stuff don't know what they're missing when they don't employ EQ. But to turn the whole thing around, I do think a lot of the people on this forum with their automatic room correction and small Genelecs or Neumanns don't know what they're missing either. Carefully employed manual EQ is a great tool. Automatic, full range room correction are very often problematic, and do not necessarily solve problems with speakers or rooms in a good way.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I would say, the moment you put a speaker in a room the can of worms is already wide open. Even if the "chain" is a mp3-player and a Tivoli.

Yes, you can see it that way

 

[Waxx]

Buying an AVR and following the on-screen instructions can result in horrible sound.

It's completely true that a lot of audiophiles with their "high end" stuff don't know what they're missing when they don't employ EQ. But to turn the whole thing around, I do think a lot of the people on this forum with their automatic room correction and small Genelecs or Neumanns don't know what their missing either. Carefully employed manual EQ is a great tool. Automatic, full range room correction are very often problematic, and do not necessarily solve problems with speakers or rooms in a good way.

I agree, i got better results without dirac on my dsp'ed system in my room than with. It takes a lot of time (measuring and tinkering) to get there, but it is like that. Maybe i was using Dirac wrong (but i followed the instructions). On other places i had more success with dirac (same type dirac, same device: a minidsp flex, different speakers and amps).

But my not dsp'd or eq'd system next to it got stronger bass, whereever in the room. It's not as detailed and refined in sound, but it makes the whole room tremble if i raise the volume. I tried to dsp it also, but i like it more without so...

That room is btw a relative small room, made of a mix of centuries old ceramic stone (baksteen in dutch) and drywalled wall with 20cm rockwool isolation insde, with a stone floor (with carpet off course) and a wooden ceiling that is plastered.

 

[computer-audiophile]

When I bring the topic down to my listening experience, what do I observe?

Other audio enthusiasts have their setups, and I can visit them, perhaps with a few familiar recordings, and then listen to how it sounds. I've done this many times.

You don't have a measuring device with you; you just listen. I have also been to setups where experts claimed to have perfectly calibrated their systems, but the sound wasn't that great (to put it politely).

So, it's not as straightforward as it may seem. However, there are people who have a talent for achieving good sound, sometimes with very individual methods. Most of the time, they have worked on it for a long time.

 

[Shadrach]

It doesn't suit my listening habits. It would have the strongest effect if you listen very quietly. I don't do that, as I said, I listen fairly evenly at room volume or sometimes a little louder.

I've sort of followed along but I still don't understand your objection to using an equalizer to reduce the worst aspects of the effect of your listening room on your loudspeakers apart from the comment you made with your experience with Pulse which you believe degraded the sound in some way..
I think I've got this right when I write you don't use sub bass units (?)
Perhaps if you loudspeakers don't reach into the lower registers of the bass some of the worst of the room modes are not enough of an issue to warrent any digital correction. I think most find it's from 150Hz downwards that the worst of the problems exist.
I appreciate that many people listen to their systems in a shared household space and extensive room treatment can turn the room into something that looks more like a studio than a living room. I'm sort of in that camp and DSP in this case would seem a near ideal solution.
Some people don't care whether their system has bumps in the frequency response and still enjoy listening to music. After all, if one was to measure any live venue, or any room, one gets these bumps and the brain deals with them.
There are still many many people, even on this forum, who are not comfortable with digital audio and do not know enough about file based audio and computers to properly set up a music player let alone work with the digital correction programs there are; most require some study to get the best out of them. Given your screen name this wouldn't seem to be the case for you.
What i find interesting is many of those who have objections to the whole digital production and replay chain are still prepared to invest quite a lot of money in what are often sideways upgrades, new equipement and physical tweaks in an attempt to achieve what digital room correction can achieve at a fraction of the cost; a better sound.
A clear description of your objections and perhaps some demonstration of the response you have in your listening space with and without any correction be they environmental or DSP would help people understand your objection.
Without this some will dismiss your objections as dogma which we get a fair amount of here on ASR.

A linux based file replay system with PulseEffects. Looks pretty simple to me.

What isn't so simple is making the measurements but one doesn't need a computer program to get decent results. A sound pressure meter and some patience can give surprisingly good results.

 

[Axo1989]

When I bring the topic down to my listening experience, what do I observe?

Other audio enthusiasts have their setups, and I can visit them, perhaps with a few familiar recordings, and then listen to how it sounds. I've done this many times.

You don't have a measuring device with you; you just listen. I have also been to setups where experts claimed to have perfectly calibrated their systems, but the sound wasn't that great (to put it politely).

So, it's not as straightforward as it may seem. However, there are people who have a talent for achieving good sound, sometimes with very individual methods. Most of the time, they have worked on it for a long time.

Well there's your problem right there. When I visit enthusiast friends we run sine sweeps and chirps, then ponder over charts with a cleansing ale or a cheeky pet nat. If you listen to music, how can you trust your lying ears?

 

[computer-audiophile]

Without this some will dismiss your objections as dogma which we get a fair amount of here on ASR.

I have not established any dogma. That must be a misunderstanding.
I don't think we are making any progress on this issue. I've already explained a lot, so I'm sorry if that's not enough.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Well there's your problem right there. When I visit enthusiast friends we run sine sweeps and chirps, then ponder over charts with a cleansing ale or a cheeky pet nat. If you listen to music, how can you trust your lying ears?

Yes, you got me!

 

[Shadrach]

I have not established any dogma. That must be a misunderstanding.
I don't think we are making any progress on this issue. I've already explained a lot, so I'm sorry if that's not enough.

I don't think you have explained a lot. I've read back and what I've read from you are very polite self effacing posts designed to keep the thread moving with very little substance regarding the reasons you think DRC and/or DSP adds unreasonable complexity or even what it is you prefer about what is very likely to be a very uneven loudspeaker response.
That's fine, lots of people do it.