Creating bass weight and impact?

[dualazmak]

Using (excellent) well calibrated microphone and excellent ADC (phantom power supply plus almost flat response down to ca 10 Hz), we can (hopefully) record our room air low-Fq sound (covered by sub-woofer and woofer) at our listening position under our room mode/environment.

Then the analysis of such recorded room air sound by 3D color sound spectrum (Fq-Gain-Time) using Adobe Audition 3.0.1, we can have 3D energy distribution color representations for our quasi-objective mutual discussion on "hardness" "tightness" or more specifically "transient behavior" or "transient characteristics" of room air low Fq sound.

Even though the 3D color spectrum given by Adobe Audition is of course not almighty for our objective discussions on "transient characteristics" of low Fq sound, it would be worthwhile (better) than having no such objective representation of low Fq sound, I believe.

Spoiler

- Measurement of transient characteristics of Yamaha 30 cm woofer JA-3058 in sealed cabinet and Yamaha active sub-woofer YST-SW1000: #495, #503, #507

- Perfect (0.1 msec precision) time alignment of all the SP drivers greatly contributes to amazing disappearance of SPs, tightness and cleanliness of the sound, and superior 3D sound stage: #520

- Not only the precision (0.1 msec level) time alignment over all the SP drivers but also SP facing directions and sound-deadening space behind the SPs plus behind our listening position would be critically important for effective (perfect?) disappearance of speakers: #687

- Reproduction and listening/hearing/feeling sensations to 16 Hz (organ) sound with my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio system having big-heavy active L&R sub-woofers: #782

Adobe Audition 3.0.1 is essentially free and can work perfectly on Windows 11 Pro 64 bit PC (ref. here and here).

 

[MoreWatts]

Talking about classical,baritones reach 70Hz (with authority),would you like to listen to them through a sub?

A hard-cutoff is not required in audio systems. It is common for the low end of the frequency range of the 'satellite' to overlap with the upper frequency range of the sub. For a full-range floor-stander, it is common to let it run full range with the sub. People will often cross the floor-stander down at 30-40 Hz, just to remove the often most distorted parts of the frequency response. A quality sub can handle to 80 Hz no problem, so not a real need to pass it lower. This overlap adds to the energy output of the bass frequencies -> slam!

Won't the baritone at 70 Hz have harmonics at 35 Hz and 17.5 Hz? Won't the sub help here?

Bass slam needs energy from high amplification and surface area. Even being a bit low in one area, e.g. 10-inch diameter subs with 500 watt amps, will still outperform the bass output of stand-mount or floor-standers with either built-in or separate amps.

 

[fpitas]

Pro subs need to be rolled off fast below the port resonance, even more acutely than home subs because of the danger of exceeding Xmax.

 

[Chrispy]

Tone controls are usually "shelves": a custom EQ curve that affects the lower or higher bands.

EQ Shelving : High Shelf And Low Shelf Filters Explained

High Shelf & Low Shelf Explained EQ shelves are filters like the high and low pass filters There are 2 types of shelves - the high shelf and low shelf High shelf can be applied to the trembly high

rebootrecording.com

Depending on the manufacturer, the curves can be very smooth and wide, or more abrupt.

A precise boost at 80Hz is surely going to be a narrow "bell" that will eat up all the wattage of the subwoofer easily.
Not worth it, since it's not granted all songs will have the thump in that frequency range.

I think of bass/treble tone controls more as a specific boost with some affect rolling off to either side of that frequency they're centered on. It seems what frequency they're centered on varies a bit with gear....

 

[MoreWatts]

Pro subs need to be rolled off fast below the port resonance, even more acutely than home subs because of the danger of exceeding Xmax.

Genelec subs will handle 80 Hz just fine without exploding.

 

[fpitas]

Genelec subs will handle 80 Hz just fine without exploding.

I'm sure they will. I thought we were talking 40Hz and below?

 

[MoreWatts]

We're talking about creating bass slam at home, which the OP says he's never heard in a home system. You can get home bass slam with subs.

 

[fpitas]

We're talking about creating bass slam at home, which the OP says he's never heard in a home system. Aren't we discussing how to create bass slam at home?

We are, yes.

 

[gnarly]

What I am trying to do is understand how the hard impactful bass of live events is created. Is it EQ'ing, just pure SPL or something else? I've never heard any domestic system really able to do it.

Mostly, yeah, it's pure SPL....moving air at sub frequencies, which mainly means 120Hz and less.
No replacement for displacement. (other than horn-loaded subs, but that's a whole 'nuther topic.)

I do have a domestic system than can provide all the tactile feel of live sound....mainly because the system is capable of live sound. It's been used at outdoor venues for several hundred people....and if the full blown rig is set up, it scales up for around a thousand.

I think solid resonse to 40Hz is pretty standard in live nowadays...live being club, small venue, or festival type sound. Even 35Hz is probably likely, and some operators are good to 30Hz. With EDM, dub, techno, going down crazy low depending on artist and budget.

Chest thump in more around 90Hz than lower, but a lot of visceral body feel is lower in freq for sure. Seems the chest is a resonant cavity of sorts.

The thing with going low in live, is the same as going low in home.....cost, size, weight, and power.
It takes 4x the speakers and amps, to maintain equal SPL, for each octave decrease. How many folks have 4X the budget and space to go from 40Hz to 20Hz ?
And that's just for equal SPL, 40 to 20 Hz. The killer sub experience is when 20Hz (and lower) is the strongest of all.

So, bottom line....if you want slam and punch and all kinds of cool bodily sensations....go big with lots of power.

 

[MoreWatts]

@fpitas sorry, I was editing my last sentence just as you were quoting me...

 

[fpitas]

@fpitas sorry, I was editing my last sentence just as you were quoting me...

No biggie. I was just noting for the various people who read these threads.

 

[dmilller]

Copied from this post by Dr Toole at AVSForum:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/how-to-choose-a-loudspeaker-what-the-science-shows.3038828/page-59#post-57537424

Your comments are very much on target, and in line with things I might have said. "Scale" is a subjectivist term with no definition.​

​

Some studies many years ago associated bass with perceived "size". I think it is definitely a factor, but with provisos. In terms of sound quality ratings, bass extension - the lowest useful frequency - is a correlate. But in all cases the room resonances are in the propagation path between the speaker(s) and listener. These can cause huge variations in perceived bass because some frequencies are emphasized and others attenuated. The specific frequencies and the amount of energy communicated are determined by room size and shape, loudspeaker location, listener location, and even the configuration of bass drivers in the enclosure and whether it is a closed box or reflex design. In "real life" it is almost impossible to do meaningful comparisons, although opinions are arrived at with great regularity.​

​

An elevated bass level is a common attribute of larger loudspeakers, and that is good. However the resulting perceptions are very likely different depending on the frequencies of the dominant room modes involved in the transfer of energy. Resonant peaks in the 80-100 Hz range generate "punchy" bass, with those at lower frequencies add "body" and can generate tactile impressions. Identifying those modes would be a good place to look for evidence of "scale" and controlling them a good way to potentially manipulate it.​

​

I will add that I have observed great perceptual benefits when room modes are attenuated by multiple sub strategies. It no longer sounds like listening in a small room when the modes are attenuated or eliminated. The bass simply fills the room, as it does in large performance venues. To me, that is a persuasive factor in achieving "scale". The equivalent phenomenon at higher frequencies is that speakers with no audible resonances can "disappear", not drawing attention to themselves. That is another contributor to "scale".​

Yes. The simple and really only answer is complex room modes in smaller spaces that aren't fully solved by EQ. Near field speakers demonstrate how even partly eliminating room modes improves the clarity of bass.

 

[dmilller]

How many folks have 4X the budget and space to go from 40Hz to 20Hz ?
And that's just for equal SPL, 40 to 20 Hz. The killer sub experience is when 20Hz (and lower) is the strongest of all.

So, bottom line....if you want slam and punch and all kinds of cool bodily sensations....go big with lots of power.

I disagree. I can have a conversation at a venue, in a raised voice, and hear great bass at not very high SPL. It's easy to make a small room loud than a big room. Many people here are systems that are flat in the deep base range.

 

[MoreWatts]

I do have a domestic system than can provide all the tactile feel of live sound....mainly because the system is capable of live sound. It's been used at outdoor venues for several hundred people....and if the full blown rig is set up, it scales up for around a thousand.

Please provide some description/photos of your room and mansion or converted industrial space/warehouse/entertainment venue/church. Are you using PA equipment as your home stereo, because the space is so large? Have you been using Genelec 8381s/a Danley system at home without showing us all?

Wouldn't a system to entertain ~1000 people require something larger than 8381s/similar Danleys?

 

[gnarly]

I disagree. I can have a conversation at a venue, in a raised voice, and hear great bass at not very high SPL. It's easy to make a small room loud than a big room. Many people here are systems that are flat in the deep base range.

For me, bass weight and impact (per thread title), mean tactile feel beyond just auditory hearing....and appears to be the gist of this thread.
And like said, that means moving air at subwoofer-frequencies. Low frequency SPL.
Not talking about just hearing great bass....talking feeling it too.

 

[Chrispy]

For me, bass weight and impact (per thread title), mean tactile feel beyond just auditory hearing....and appears to be the gist of this thread.
And like said, that means moving air at subwoofer-frequencies. Low frequency SPL.
Not talking about just hearing great bass....talking feeling it too.

Do you also use tactile transducers? I find a large sub right behind my seat can help out with tactile stuff, but not quite as much as a good tactile transducer under it.

 

[gnarly]

Please provide some description/photos of your room and mansion or converted industrial space/warehouse/entertainment venue/church. Are you using PA equipment as your home stereo, because the space is so large? Have you been using Genelec 8381s/a Danley system at home without showing us all?

Wouldn't a system to entertain ~1000 people require something larger than 8381s/similar Danleys?

Yep for sure, takes much larger than 8381/Danleys.
For a few hundred folks, these mains PM60 and PM90, on top of theses subs JTR Orbitshifters work great.

Or if more subis needed , I put them on a bank on Danley designed Labhorns.

If more mains are needed for like a thousand, this make a good speaker.
I add as many horn subs as possible... the 18"s shown under the stack are just for side fill etc...

Now all that said, and shown....if folks think it takes a huge space to benefit from very strong speakers....
that is not my experience...whatsoever...in fact mine is the opposite...

The effortless SPL dynamics and low distortion, the utterly clean sound from speakers with higher SPL capability...is such a joy at everyday listening levels...
and is an absolute thrill ride when occasionally wanting to blast.

Here's my right side stereo home speaker.... built solely for highest sound quality possible....(not SPL)........but still waaay stronger than the genelec or Danley mentioned...
I'm at 12-15ft ft listening distance

 

[gnarly]

Do you also use tactile transducers? I find a large sub right behind my seat can help out with tactile stuff, but not quite as much as a good tactile transducer under it.

I've never had the fortune to try any. I hear they work great.
Although I don't listen seated very much....
I like to stand, move around...dance etc...

 

[Chrispy]

I've never had the fortune to try any. I hear they work great.
Although I don't listen seated very much....
I like to stand, move around...dance etc...

They definitely can help depending....some just put them in the floor so might not be bad for moving around.....never tried that but have read of many using them in seat risers as a supplement. More an HT thing than 2ch.....

 

[MoreWatts]

Based on the photos, I think @gnarly can get his room to shake just fine without the need for 'shakers,' especially with suspended floors.

BTW, thnx for the photos.