Yamaha's "Physics of Bi-amping"

[ddoppler]

XLR and RCA are just the connector types. There are also 2 different standard levels (voltages). The higher pro level helps decrease noise transfer.

CONSUMER vs PROFESSIONAL AUDIO LEVELS: -10 dBV vs +4 dBu – Audio University

audiouniversityonline.com

XLRs, used to be standard in studios and never used in consumer gear. XLRs were always balanced and had pro level, sometimes the level was switchable. RCAs are always unbalanced and usually consumer level but the level can vary. When consumer manufacturers started putting XLRs on home equipment this changed. They had to drop the level to match other consumer gear. Now its a crap shoot. Check the specs or risk overloading an input.

Thanks for your input-Cbdb2…I’m reading up on the “consumer vs professional” info you have provided. I should say; I’m studying up on all this information.

I’ll be checking specs as well, that would be more related to what I’m looking for, in a “consumer to consumer” set up. Thanks all.

 

[Hayabusa]

XLR and RCA are just the connector types. There are also 2 different standard levels (voltages). The higher pro level helps decrease noise transfer.

XLR are not just connector types, as said your self: one is balanced the other not.
This means that if you transport the same level on the XLR and RCA signal wires the XLR level will be twice as high (6dB).
And its not the pro levels that is the main reason for decreased noise but the fact that XLR is balanced which gives common mode noise rejection

 

[sergeauckland]

XLR are not just connector types, as said your self: one is balanced the other not.
This means that if you transport the same level on the XLR and RCA signal wires the XLR level will be twice as high (6dB).
And its not the pro levels that is the main reason for decreased noise but the fact that XLR is balanced which gives common mode noise rejection

No, an XLR IS just a connector type. It can be used unbalanced or balanced,,and as I said above, the signal level is NOT twice an unbalanced signal as that depends firstly on ehat the signal level is, and secondly where measured, between pin 1 and 2 or 3 or between pins 2 and 3 AND how the signal is driven, whether fully floating or centre tapped.

S

 

[Hayabusa]

No, an XLR IS just a connector type. It can be used unbalanced or balanced,,and as I said above, the signal level is NOT twice an unbalanced signal as that depends firstly on ehat the signal level is, and secondly where measured, between pin 1 and 2 or 3 or between pins 2 and 3 AND how the signal is driven, whether fully floating or centre tapped.

S

Just a connector? Try to send a balanced signal over RCA...

Normal XLR usage: pin2 carries Vin*1.0 and pin3 Vin*-1.0.
The balanced signal is defined as V = pin2 - pin3 = 2.0*Vin

 

[sergeauckland]

Just a connector? Try to send a balanced signal over RCA...

Normal XLR usage: pin2 carries Vin*1.0 and pin3 Vin*-1.0.
The balanced signal is defined as V = pin2 - pin3 = 2.0*Vin

Yes one can. Just make sure that the shield of the RCA connector doesn't touch ground.

A balanced signal on an XLR is indeed the difference between pins 2 and 3. However, what is Vin?

As I've said twice before above, how one unbalances a balanced output depends on whether the balanced signal is centre tapped or fully floating. There is NO 6dB reduction if the balanced output is fully floating.

I'm going to leave it there.

S.

 

[Hayabusa]

I'm going to leave it there.

S.

Me too

 

[ddoppler]

XLR and RCA are just the connector types. There are also 2 different standard levels (voltages). The higher pro level helps decrease noise transfer.

CONSUMER vs PROFESSIONAL AUDIO LEVELS: -10 dBV vs +4 dBu – Audio University

audiouniversityonline.com

XLRs, used to be standard in studios and never used in consumer gear. XLRs were always balanced and had pro level, sometimes the level was switchable. RCAs are always unbalanced and usually consumer level but the level can vary. When consumer manufacturers started putting XLRs on home equipment this changed. They had to drop the level to match other consumer gear. Now it’s a crap shoot. Check the specs or risk overloading an input.

Thanks for the consumer vs professional audio levels link…once you see the differences and get to “line level”

XLR and RCA are just the connector types. There are also 2 different standard levels (voltages). The higher pro level helps decrease noise transfer.

CONSUMER vs PROFESSIONAL AUDIO LEVELS: -10 dBV vs +4 dBu – Audio University

audiouniversityonline.com

XLRs, used to be standard in studios and never used in consumer gear. XLRs were always balanced and had pro level, sometimes the level was switchable. RCAs are always unbalanced and usually consumer level but the level can vary. When consumer manufacturers started putting XLRs on home equipment this changed. They had to drop the level to match other consumer gear. Now its a crap shoot. Check the specs or risk overloading an input.

 

[ddoppler]

Thanks for the consumer vs professional audio levels link…once you see the differences and get to “line level

Thanks for the consumer vs professional audio levels link…once you see the differences and get to “line level”

Sorry, I meant to add more here, but I nodded off…this is pretty interesting stuff, once you start understanding Line Level, the light bulb starts to get a little brighter in terms of understanding Speaker Levels. It starts becoming a REAL page turner on learning about the decibel.

“Humans are capable of hearing pressure changes from as subtle as 20 micropascals to as extreme as 20 pascals. The ratio between these values is 1:10,000,000!”

Wow! Is this the reason why so many people hear huge differences in what they perceive is a great sounding system…and then bring someone else into the mix, and they’ll think it sounds terrible. It seems like the same analogy on regular CD sound vs SACD.

Anyway, as you know…I really appreciate the continued support on my journey to putting together a nice clean sounding system…oh yeah, and I think I mentioned before-fortunately for me, it’s a LITTLE less complicated as my set up will be “consumer to consumer” instead of “consumer to professional” or vice versa.

 

[ddoppler]

Me too

Me3…sorry for bringing the chaos on the XLR cables.

Me too

 

[DonH56]

XLR are not just connector types, as said your self: one is balanced the other not.
This means that if you transport the same level on the XLR and RCA signal wires the XLR level will be twice as high (6dB).
And its not the pro levels that is the main reason for decreased noise but the fact that XLR is balanced which gives common mode noise rejection

The Cannon XLR is a connector type. Whether or not the circuit is balanced depends upon other things than the connector. I have seen many examples of XLR connectors used essentially for the "pro look" that do not have differential, or even balanced, circuitry behind them. An XLR connector provides the ability to provide balanced or differential signals in a single connector. An RCA solution requires two connectors for a balanced/differential circuit (one for the in-phase "+" and another for the complementary "-" signal).

The signal level is similarly dictated by the circuitry inside and not the connector itself. The most common IME is +6 dB for the differential signal since two similar drivers each provide the same level but opposite polarity, doubling the effective voltage level. However, I've seen specs all over the map, especially for consumer units. Some designs use a balanced circuit that simply terminates one side for no gain, and some may use transformers or dividers that can reduce the gain (perhaps to provide lower distortion and higher headroom for the internal signal chain).

From Wikipedia:

History and manufacturers[edit]​

Male and female XLR connectors with different numbers of pins
The XLR connector (also Cannon plug and Cannon connector) was invented by James H. Cannon, founder of the Cannon Electric company, Los Angeles, California. The XLR connector originated from the Cannon X series of connectors; by 1950, a latching mechanism was added to the connector, which produced the Cannon XL model of connector, and by 1955, the female connector featured synthetic-rubber insulation polychloroprene (neoprene), identified with the part-number prefix XLR. There was also the XLP series of connectors with hard plastic insulation, but the XLR model name is commonly used for all of the variants.[2][3][4]

Originally, the ITT Cannon company manufactured XLR connectors in two locations: Kanagawa, Japan, and Melbourne, Australia. The Australian factory was sold to Alcatel Components in 1992 and then acquired by Amphenol in 1998. Later, the Switchcraft corporation manufactured compatible connectors, followed by the Neutrik company, which made improvements to the connector, and produced a second-generation design (the X-series) that had only four parts for the cable connector, and eliminated the small screws used in the models of XLR connectors made by Cannon and Switchcraft.

 

[ddoppler]

XLR are not just connector types, as said your self: one is balanced the other not.
This means that if you transport the same level on the XLR and RCA signal wires the XLR level will be twice as high (6dB).
And its not the pro levels that is the main reason for decreased noise but the fact that XLR is balanced which gives common mode noise rejection

The Canon XLR is a connector type. Whether or not the circuit is balanced depends upon other things than the connector. I have seen many examples of XLR connectors used essentially for the "pro look" that do not have differential, or even balanced, circuitry behind them. An XLR connector provides the ability to provide balanced or differential signals in a single connector. An RCA solution requires two connectors for a balanced/differential circuit (one for the in-phase "+" and another for the complementary "-" signal).

The signal level is similarly dictated by the circuitry inside and not the connector itself. The most common IME is +6 dB for the differential signal since two similar drivers each provide the same level but opposite polarity, doubling the effective voltage level. However, I've seen specs all over the map, especially for consumer units. Some designs use a balanced circuit that simply terminates one side for no gain, and some may use transformers or dividers that can reduce the gain (perhaps to provide lower distortion and higher headroom for the internal signal chain).

From Wikipedia:

History and manufacturers[edit]​

Male and female XLR connectors with different numbers of pins
The XLR connector (also Cannon plug and Cannon connector) was invented by James H. Cannon, founder of the Cannon Electric company, Los Angeles, California. The XLR connector originated from the Cannon X series of connectors; by 1950, a latching mechanism was added to the connector, which produced the Cannon XL model of connector, and by 1955, the female connector featured synthetic-rubber insulation polychloroprene (neoprene), identified with the part-number prefix XLR. There was also the XLP series of connectors with hard plastic insulation, but the XLR model name is commonly used for all of the variants.[2][3][4]

Originally, the ITT Cannon company manufactured XLR connectors in two locations: Kanagawa, Japan, and Melbourne, Australia. The Australian factory was sold to Alcatel Components in 1992 and then acquired by Amphenol in 1998. Later, the Switchcraft corporation manufactured compatible connectors, followed by the Neutrik company, which made improvements to the connector, and produced a second-generation design (the X-series) that had only four parts for the cable connector, and eliminated the small screws used in the models of XLR connectors made by Cannon and Switchcraft.

 

[Cbdb2]

XLR are not just connector types, as said your self: one is balanced the other not.
This means that if you transport the same level on the XLR and RCA signal wires the XLR level will be twice as high (6dB).
And its not the pro levels that is the main reason for decreased noise but the fact that XLR is balanced which gives common mode noise rejection

Balancing only reduces the noise picked up by the transmission line, higher signal level increases the S/N of the hardware. (noise level stays the same, signal goes up).

 

[Cbdb2]

Just a connector? Try to send a balanced signal over RCA...

Normal XLR usage: pin2 carries Vin*1.0 and pin3 Vin*-1.0.
The balanced signal is defined as V = pin2 - pin3 = 2.0*Vin

If you float the RCA connection its possible to use an RCA cable for a balanced signal, not a good idea, but possible. And the XLR pin 2 is not always hot, sometimes its pin 3. Sure you get 2xVin, but what if Vin is 1/2 of the V at the RCA connector?

 

[ddoppler]

If you float the RCA connection it’s possible to use an RCA cable for a balanced signal, not a good idea, but possible. And the XLR pin 2 is not always hot, sometimes it’s pin 3. Sure you get 2xVin, but what if Vin is 1/2 of the V at the RCA connector?

Oh man, I just caught this…so you definitely need to make sure your pin assignments are the same regarding connecting from AVR/Pre-Amp to the Power Amp? I wasn’t even thinking about that…but, are they the same for most consumer applications? Thanks again.

 

[Cbdb2]

Not sure my experience was in the studio and pin 2 hot was always a guess.

 

[ddoppler]

Not sure my experience was in the studio and pin 2 hot was always a guess.

Hmm…you’d think something that important would be jumping right out at you in the specifications…probably just missed it.

 

[DonH56]

Hmm…you’d think something that important would be jumping right out at you in the specifications…probably just missed it.

There's not really a hard spec, and for a long time Europe and the USA swapped pin connections.

 

[ddoppler]

There's not really a hard spec, and for a long time Europe and the USA swapped pin connections.

Okay-thanks. I’ll definitely make sure on this and/or talk with the manufacturer-before committing.

 

[DonH56]

Okay-thanks. I’ll definitely make sure on this and/or talk with the manufacturer-before committing.

Pins 2 and 3 my be swapped, or not (most components follow pin2 = positive polarity but some, like Emotiva, use pin 3) but it is of little practical consequence. Flip the polarity in your processor or swap the connections at the speaker or amp if need be. Pin 1 is always shield (ground) in my experience.

 

[restorer-john]

There's not really a hard spec, and for a long time Europe and the USA swapped pin connections.

And the manufacturers wired according to the market they sold into: