Audible difference in high-end capacitors? - ABX samples

[esl 63]

So then what is the magic that we can't measure but hear?

You can measure most! Another question what is most relevant and what is our brain more or less sensitive too?
One example is the SINAD that is a complete nonsense in some respect, since it is soo far away from scientific if we look on perception psychology.
Let me explain.... Our ear is a mechanical device, it is nonlinear in its construction, and it is also changing its own distortion generator with amplitude.
Non of those parameters is taken into consideration in a SINAD measurement. Actually there is a third thing called masking effect that is alsomforgotten, and some other stuff but i will explain the first two. Fifth harmonic distortion generation is non existing in our ear and perception wise we are highly sensitive to those sounds. But not only sensitive... it makes us feel uncomfortable. If you take your cutlery, a fork as an example and scratch your dining plate you generate the most annoying sounds. In comparison you have a metal rod that generates even harmonics and it sounds like an instrument, a pleasant rich sound. Now we compare this with 2nd harmonic distortion that is actually generated by your ear with up to 10% at lower frequency and high amplitude! You are used to it and you didn't know it maybe until right at this moment! Can you compare 2nd harmonic with 5th harmonic like apple and apple? No. You can not. Not if you are interested in sound reproduction and hearing and listening experience. And if you hang around here you maybe are?? What THD figure tells you is a sum of all harmonics with NO scientific perception psychology taken in consideration. So when you see an FFT diagram you can or should neglect that second harmonic unless it is in a range of -30dB to -40dB. On the other hand if you spot odd harmonics 5th 7th 9th etc (the higher the worst) then we know that it is much more perceivable AND irritating. Then we have the noise and masking effect. You are in a restaurant or a close to a disturbing apparatus that generates with lots of noise, if you concentrate you can decide to follow a conversation even though the voice is well below the noise floor! Thats why you can not compare digital S/N figures with analogue S/N figures. A tape recorder or an LP will give you information well below the measured noise floor! But in the digital domain it is just cut off completely!
I read that we can hear information >12dB below noise floor. So the DSP you have in your brain has some attributes that is not considered at all in a SINAD measurement. So use your eyes to look at that FFT measurement and you can judge a little bit better than the "number". Another interesting thing that we can mask higher harmonics with lower harmonics. But that you can read for yourself in MP3 compression techniques.

 

[muslhead]

Dielectric absorption test and also double blind listening tests done in a known environment historically has showed a significant difference between capacitors. A known environmet is an equipment that you are used to. If you go to a friend with different acoustics, gear, speakers, you will score 50/50 on almost all tests. While a trained listener in a familiar setup scores 9/10 at wery small changes... could be moving a soft pillow from the floor to a table... done that been there...

ahh, blame it on a non trained listener. Got it!

 

[voodooless]

So, a lot of handwaving.. nothing at all concrete regarding capacitors. Apparently, it really is magic...

Gish gallop - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[antcollinet]

You can measure most! Another question what is most relevant and what is our brain more or less sensitive too?
One example is the SINAD that is a complete nonsense in some respect, since it is soo far away from scientific if we look on perception psychology.
Let me explain.... Our ear is a mechanical device, it is nonlinear in its construction, and it is also changing its own distortion generator with amplitude.
Non of those parameters is taken into consideration in a SINAD measurement. Actually there is a third thing called masking effect that is alsomforgotten, and some other stuff but i will explain the first two. Fifth harmonic distortion generation is non existing in our ear and perception wise we are highly sensitive to those sounds. But not only sensitive... it makes us feel uncomfortable. If you take your cutlery, a fork as an example and scratch your dining plate you generate the most annoying sounds. In comparison you have a metal rod that generates even harmonics and it sounds like an instrument, a pleasant rich sound. Now we compare this with 2nd harmonic distortion that is actually generated by your ear with up to 10% at lower frequency and high amplitude! You are used to it and you didn't know it maybe until right at this moment! Can you compare 2nd harmonic with 5th harmonic like apple and apple? No. You can not. Not if you are interested in sound reproduction and hearing and listening experience. And if you hang around here you maybe are?? What THD figure tells you is a sum of all harmonics with NO scientific perception psychology taken in consideration. So when you see an FFT diagram you can or should neglect that second harmonic unless it is in a range of -30dB to -40dB. On the other hand if you spot odd harmonics 5th 7th 9th etc (the higher the worst) then we know that it is much more perceivable AND irritating. Then we have the noise and masking effect. You are in a restaurant or a close to a disturbing apparatus that generates with lots of noise, if you concentrate you can decide to follow a conversation even though the voice is well below the noise floor! Thats why you can not compare digital S/N figures with analogue S/N figures. A tape recorder or an LP will give you information well below the measured noise floor! But in the digital domain it is just cut off completely!
I read that we can hear information >12dB below noise floor. So the DSP you have in your brain has some attributes that is not considered at all in a SINAD measurement. So use your eyes to look at that FFT measurement and you can judge a little bit better than the "number". Another interesting thing that we can mask higher harmonics with lower harmonics. But that you can read for yourself in MP3 compression techniques.

Oh dear lord.

 

[Sokel]

You can measure most! Another question what is most relevant and what is our brain more or less sensitive too?
One example is the SINAD that is a complete nonsense in some respect, since it is soo far away from scientific if we look on perception psychology.
Let me explain.... Our ear is a mechanical device, it is nonlinear in its construction, and it is also changing its own distortion generator with amplitude.
Non of those parameters is taken into consideration in a SINAD measurement. Actually there is a third thing called masking effect that is alsomforgotten, and some other stuff but i will explain the first two. Fifth harmonic distortion generation is non existing in our ear and perception wise we are highly sensitive to those sounds. But not only sensitive... it makes us feel uncomfortable. If you take your cutlery, a fork as an example and scratch your dining plate you generate the most annoying sounds. In comparison you have a metal rod that generates even harmonics and it sounds like an instrument, a pleasant rich sound. Now we compare this with 2nd harmonic distortion that is actually generated by your ear with up to 10% at lower frequency and high amplitude! You are used to it and you didn't know it maybe until right at this moment! Can you compare 2nd harmonic with 5th harmonic like apple and apple? No. You can not. Not if you are interested in sound reproduction and hearing and listening experience. And if you hang around here you maybe are?? What THD figure tells you is a sum of all harmonics with NO scientific perception psychology taken in consideration. So when you see an FFT diagram you can or should neglect that second harmonic unless it is in a range of -30dB to -40dB. On the other hand if you spot odd harmonics 5th 7th 9th etc (the higher the worst) then we know that it is much more perceivable AND irritating. Then we have the noise and masking effect. You are in a restaurant or a close to a disturbing apparatus that generates with lots of noise, if you concentrate you can decide to follow a conversation even though the voice is well below the noise floor! Thats why you can not compare digital S/N figures with analogue S/N figures. A tape recorder or an LP will give you information well below the measured noise floor! But in the digital domain it is just cut off completely!
I read that we can hear information >12dB below noise floor. So the DSP you have in your brain has some attributes that is not considered at all in a SINAD measurement. So use your eyes to look at that FFT measurement and you can judge a little bit better than the "number". Another interesting thing that we can mask higher harmonics with lower harmonics. But that you can read for yourself in MP3 compression techniques.

It would help using paragraphs,a wall of text like this is unattractive no matter what it says.
I (and others for sure) would skip it just for this.

 

[Geert]

Then we have the noise and masking effect. You are in a restaurant or a close to a disturbing apparatus that generates with lots of noise, if you concentrate you can decide to follow a conversation even though the voice is well below the noise floor! Thats why you can not compare digital S/N figures with analogue S/N figures. A tape recorder or an LP will give you information well below the measured noise floor! But in the digital domain it is just cut off completely!

That's the 'cocktail-party effect', a name Collins Cherry came up with in the 50's. It has nothing to do with analog our digital. This effect is still actively being researched as it still is not fully understood, and they don't use analog media for this.

 

[fpitas]

A tape recorder or an LP will give you information well below the measured noise floor! But in the digital domain it is just cut off completely!

The difference in SINAD is so profound though; it's hard to believe you can hear 40dB into the noise floor of say, vinyl.

 

[Spkrdctr]

If a (more) complete set of measurements is done, this thread could be a very useful reference. One may quote it as solid proof everytime someone says "blabla cap sounds so much different/better". As it stands, without much else than a single FR measurement, it's not much of a proof.

Not really. Any audiophile worth their salt will tell you "Well that is that cap, but the brand new super duper Quantum Cap sounds different". So to be useful, you have to test every single wire made for wires, caps for caps resistors for resistor and on and on. They never have to prove anything but just say "It makes a huge difference". Then if you disagree you have to try to prove it doesn't, I just say to the audiophool, "oh really?, where is your proof". When all they have is their word, I'd just laugh in their face, then call them a flat earther! LOL

 

[fpitas]

They never have to prove anything

That's the takeaway. Toss a grenade over the wall at testing done here, and walk away whistling.

 

[Spkrdctr]

So then what is the magic that we can't measure but hear?

Fairy dust, Pixie variety. Works every time. Some high end audio makers use truck loads of the stuff!

 

[fpitas]

Fairy dust, Pixie variety. Works every time. Some high end audio makers use truck loads of the stuff!

Delivered by unicorns. For an extra fee.

 

[Palladium]

Not really. Any audiophile worth their salt will tell you "Well that is that cap, but the brand new super duper Quantum Cap sounds different". So to be useful, you have to test every single wire made for wires, caps for caps resistors for resistor and on and on. They never have to prove anything but just say "It makes a huge difference". Then if you disagree you have to try to prove it doesn't, I just say to the audiophool, "oh really?, where is your proof". When all they have is their word, I'd just laugh in their face, then call them a flat earther! LOL

Don't you know the best sounding XLR plugs are the ones only when made exactly 2020 hours on 20 Feb 2020 in a particular Shenzhen factory?

 

[Travis]

An investigation about this could be done even just on the worst exemplars, with and without an air spring isolator with very low resonance (about 1-2 Hz) and high Q, when it goes to incident delayed acoustic field, radiated from actual loudspeakers and reaching, e.g., a preamplifier stage with series condensers on the signal path. This aspect of microphonicity could be present too.

Good thing @MattHooper suggested @amirm do vibration testing. Now he can get a two for one and he can blow all this bullshit out of the water, or not.

Could be a run on Sorbathane, Vibraplane and Newport isolation, better order early.

 

[Salt]

Let me jump in for short and then vanish again:
30 years ago I had to substitute an electrolyte cap parallel to M/W (impedance correction RC) and had only a MKT at hand.
After replacement bass was much more defined than before, though cap was'nt even in signal path.
Since then never used electrolytes again.
Purely subjective, and never measured (did only for x-over, not for bass).
But if I remember correctly, Timmermanns had a series of comparing Coils, caps and resistors, if may old brain remembers correcly. Maybe someone can prov this.

And gone...

 

[DrCWO]

Why not use linearphase XOs generated by Acourate inside of Roon, get multiple cheap amps like NCx500 driven by a good multichannel DAC? This will stop the Caps discussion forever and will give you the „feeling“ you did it right

 

[thecheapseats]

The last smaller console I saw was full of worn out sliders and rotary pots and generally everything was worn. I recommended replacement and never even tried to be the hero. Too many mechanical parts wearing out makes it not only uneconomical to repair but the overall condition after repair could not be guaranteed. Put it out to pasture and get a new one. The replacement cost was not high.

many large format consoles (in commercial rooms) were ridden hard and put away wet in their day - and yes, most of them were 'beat'...

but a few were not, and when maintained well they still sound exceptional... my large format trident as well as two neve sidecars I own still function very well - in some aspects, better that when I bought them new... but even in a personal use studio they still required recap and rebuilds over the last forty plus years (two so far since new @ appx $12 and $16k respectively) and were not cheap... but you don't get what you don't pay for... admittedly it required hoarding a few parts that are unobtainium today - but that goes with the territory... gotta' keep these tools 'sharp'...

 

[Spkrdctr]

You mean poorly executed and undocumented blind tests, more like anecdotes actually?

Bingo!

 

[Vigovsky]

Distortion from capacitors.
Selecting Capacitors to Minimize Distortion in Audio Applications.
Texas Instruments: https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/slyt796

 

[testp]

Awesome!

There could be an interesting Poll made from this, add these cap-clips (without name) with a Poll (sure everyone that votes should listen first or something), and later announce the poll results with what clip was what

 

[Vigovsky]

My ESR test of a quality ClarityCap CSA film capacitor in my crossover.
ESR is a very important quality indicator of capacitor...