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What's Left In Speaker Design To Reduce Distortion/Increase Detail Retrieval?

fineMen

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Probably just different spelling conventions in different languages. But I also have trouble sometimes parsing @fineMen's text.
Guys, I really do not want to appear as notorious. I double check my writing against DeepL, and it seems to be o/k. My apologies if it is not.

On the other hand, it is a wide arc from (a) sensorial detection of a 'signal' to (b) making some sense of it, the 'information'. ( I had communication theory in school at the age of 12. Maybe I got it wrong. ) The detail, as explicated before is in 'meaning' territory**. Detail is in the mind, not in the machinery. So it is uterly subjective. That's why I objected against the use of that term here.

Please go ahead.

Just a hint, I won't follow the disussion further, though. Give a concrete example of 'detail', name a record that e/g may be available on Tidal. Answer the question if 'detail' is lost again over 'bad system' once it was detected over 'good system'.
I could give some very concrete examples, but as said, at its current state the discussion doesn't attract my interest anymore.

Sorry, no hard feelings, no offense.

** most simple proof: but what criteria would one decide what is 'detail' and what is 'gross'--a musician has developed another focus compared to an entertainment seeking consumer, different weighing not attention at all, it is a differnt 'mental map' of the whole thing
 
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CapMan

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Is there a time in the future where technology short circuits the whole recording chain and captures the ‘experience’ via a listener’s brain activity and replay is via transmission of that experience into the recipients brain.

So the listener becomes a kind of proxy for a microphone generating brain function not sound waves ….

No speakers, no headphones ..

Sounds weird even as I type it !
 

voodooless

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Is there a time in the future where technology short circuits the whole recording chain and captures the ‘experience’ via a listener’s brain activity and replay is via transmission of that experience into the recipients brain.

So the listener becomes a kind of proxy for a microphone generating brain function not sound waves ….

No speakers, no headphones ..

Sounds weird even as I type it !
So then you can capture a live gig experience from someone on magic mushrooms, and experience the effect without ever having to eat them o_O :cool:.

.. Or you can experience the joy of having new high-end cables installed and listening to them for the very first time, without ever having to buy any cables at all :eek:

I'm in!
 

CapMan

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So then you can capture a live gig experience from someone on magic mushrooms, and experience the effect without ever having to eat them o_O :cool:.

.. Or you can experience the joy of having new high-end cables installed and listening to them for the very first time, without ever having to buy any cables at all :eek:

I'm in!
Sounds better the way you describe it - Total Recall for audio buffs

It would open a whole new revenue stream up to reviewers - buy my actual brain experience (or lack of) !!

You could even have EQ to adjust / filter the amount of bias in the experience - 0 = just the music , 100 = I hate this band, the acoustics suck etc
 

IPunchCholla

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Give a concrete example of 'detail', name a record that e/g may be available on Tidal. Answer the question if 'detail' is lost again over 'bad system' once it was detected over 'good system'.
I could give some very concrete examples, but as said, at its current state the discussion doesn't attract my interest anymore.
I’m not on Tidal. Nor is this published. But I am working on a song. Violins fade in and are ideally just noticed when a heavily distorted guitar chord is played LOUD. Mixing it is tricky since it is quiet obvious on my headphones, but inaudible over the speakers in room. So that detail is lost depending on the system/room/loudness of the music. I see no reason in which subtle/quiet elements wouldn’t be lost in some transducer’s playback. The same phenomena happens when listening to my phone’s speakers. The music is grossly the same, but there is a lot that is missing compared to my 2.1 setup, usually losing definition in the toms, kick drum, and bass as well as subtle interplays between synth and guitars.
 

gnarly

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Olive references Klipple and that he uses the song to demonstrate distortion with his measurements. Both of them know the differences between accurate and objective speaker evaluation and psychological and physical issues.

They are both all about the science and controlled listening tests. Olive lays it out pretty carefully, even giving the example of book shelf speakers and maxing out the woofer excursion. That’s simple physics.

That song is unforgiving and is a practical way for people to listen for themselves how distortion measurements can be important and how that song can translate to actual listening.

Thanks for a good example of when frequency response and standard distortion tests ala spinorama etc, stop short of fully describing the sound of a speaker.

For me, bass modulating voice, or modulating any musical content higher in frequency than the bass, is a more audible form of distortion than standard THD.
I'm pretty well convinced reducing such modulation distortion may be the best way to increase "detail" in speaker design :)

I don't know of any good standard measurement technique, for capturing/describing this kind of audible modulation distortion.
Two-tone, mutl-tone, etc IMD are too hard to interpret / glean anything from ime.
 

fpitas

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Much of this sounds like the assertion that there are unmeasurable spiritual details revealed by Cobalt infused Silver-Palladium interconnects.
Well...maybe you can't hear the difference.
 

Ron Texas

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The real answer might not be in the speaker itself. Probably stuff like BACCH is the next frontier. Maybe some of the reflection canceling technology from the Klippel too.
 

fpitas

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Two-tone, mutl-tone, etc IMD are too hard to interpret / glean anything from ime.
Two tone should certainly capture Doppler distortion, if that's what we're talking about.
 

gnarly

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Two tone should certainly capture Doppler distortion, if that's what we're talking about.
I can see how theoretically it should.
Just can't see how to programmatically implement it.
For example, what two tones would you use to replicate the modulation of what is heard of the "Fast Car" played on bookshelf example.

I've played with IMD measurements a bit, and the problem is there are a dang infinite number of two-tome combos, between choosing frequencies and relative levels between the tones.
I'm looking for some form of standardized two-tone or multi-tone procedure that correlates with my perception of clarity....talking speaker only..and I'm all ears for suggestions.

I should also admit...I don't really know the specific differences between Doppler distortion, amplitude modulation distortion, and frequency modulation distortion etc.
And honestly don't much care, other than knowing which type of measurement should go with which, and more importantly which type measures in a way that correlates with my perception.

I simply hear/know that when a driver has less excursion modulating higher frequencies within its bandwidth, the higher frequencies audibly clean up some.
Concomitantly, I know logically when a driver's passband is narrowed, the degree the lower end of the passband can modulate the upper end, gets reduced.

And is why I'm into active multi-way speakers. Because I DO :) hear more detail with them as I work on reducing those two producers of modulation. ....lower end excursion and drivers' bandwidths.
 

fpitas

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I simply hear/know that when a driver has less excursion modulating higher frequencies within its bandwidth, the higher frequencies audibly clean up some.
Well yes, that's not controversial. Were it me I'd perhaps first look at a spectrogram while that song plays and see what frequencies might be appropriate. But honestly, any pair of frequencies that still go through a single driver can be valid.
 

gnarly

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Well yes, that's not controversial. Were it me I'd perhaps first look at a spectrogram while that song plays and see what frequencies might be appropriate. But honestly, any pair of frequencies that still go through a single driver can be valid.
That's a good idea for identifying the frequencies.

Most of the "modulation" testing I've done to date, has been take a single driver, and vary a single frequency CEA tone burst, and look at it via FFT/RTA.
Lower frequency tones produce more higher freq gack.....no surprise there.
Drive level, which equates to excursion, greatly increases gack....again no surprise.
Gack being defined as increased response away from test tone freq.

This sheet shows the kind of test I'm talking about. The idea behind the test is how low in freq to use a driver before it goes to gack.
I have speakers with drivers than have considerable latitude in choosing xover points, still with smooth direct ivy matchups.
multi tone sheet.JPG
 
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MattHooper

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On the other hand, it is a wide arc from (a) sensorial detection of a 'signal' to (b) making some sense of it, the 'information'.

Of course...it's been acknowledged already that what we perceive comes through a process of mediation.

But that is true of all our sense perception. None of which entails that we aren't perceiving something objective in the world.

You could take this very sentence:

it is a wide arc from (a) sensorial detection of a 'signal' to (b) making some sense of it, the 'information'.

And it would apply to the "sensorial detection" of a street light pole towards which you are driving your car at high speed.

Does that mean the pole that you smash in to was "only in your imagination?"

If not, then simply appealing to the mediated properties of our sense perception does not entail that we are not perceiving something real, whether it's a street pole or differences in the properties of reproduced sound, like detail. To move from this to "it is only in the imagination" is at best false, at worst a non-sequitur.

Is it possible for you to realize you aren't making any sense?
 

Travis

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On the other hand, it is a wide arc from (a) sensorial detection of a 'signal' to (b) making some sense of it, the 'information'. ( I had communication theory in school at the age of 12. Maybe I got it wrong. ) The detail, as explicated before is in 'meaning' territory**. Detail is in the mind, not in the machinery. So it is uterly subjective. That's why I objected against the use of that term here.
I swore I wasn’t going to jump into this, but here goes.

What you are talking about is a completely different aspect of hearing and the auditory process. Things like Nyquist response theory and the brain being able to fill in “detail.” There are numerous other examples of how humans process sound in the the brain. Those can vary from person to person, or they can vary depending on the content of what is being heard. The control for that is the same speaker/headphones are used.

You are 100% correct, there are numerous controlled scientific studies on audio perception (a lot of it for hearing aid development) that make clear that the brain is processing that information and can fill in information (call it “detail” if you would like).

You are focusing on what the brain does with that signal when it arrives (sound waves hit ear drums) and is processed by the brain and there is a perception. Same signal (song) from same speaker. It could be single piano notes. Open double bass strings being plucked. Human voice (which is where all of this started so you could hear and understand someone on the other end of the line). Eardrum to areas of brain that process sound is what you are talking about.

That’s not what this thread is about and not the sense that “detail is being used.” This thread is concerning itself with whether any changes can be made to the Loudspeaker (or individual transducers) that will result in the output (sound) being perceived in general, as either more “life like” or more pleasant, or without masking, or a dozen other subjective criteria.

So if you want to be on the same page as everyone here, this is what you do. Pick a song, any song, but one with some bass and some high end. Play that song on your smartphone with your ear to your phone. Then put phone on table and play it through the speaker phone speaker. Then play that song through a decent set of bookshelf speakers, and then if you have them, play the song on your full range floor standing system.

Listen in as quite a place as you can find. Jot a few things down that you heard that were different from one to the other. Did you hear something you didn’t hear in the previous listen. Was the sound better or worse than previous listen?

If all of those devices sound exactly the same to you, no differences, then congratulations, you are blessed with a brain that can process and fill in details regardless of the source and have great sound. But they don’t sound the same, and we all know that.

However, if you are like the rest of us, you hear more information(“detail”) when you go from the ear phone of your phone to the speaker phone to the book shelf to full range floorstanders You have also conducted an experiment where you controlled for the processing of your brain - same signal/song through 4 different sources of sound waves.

Which get us to what this thread is about.
Are there any improvements to loudspeaker (transducers) that will result in more information being able to be perceived/processed by the brain, or emit less of something that the brain perceives as unpleasant (noise/types of distortion)?

If you have a deep interest in how the brain processes sound, music, and all things associated with that there is a whole section on psychoacoustics where there are discussions on what brain is doing, what’s really there, what isn’t, etc.

This particular topic just isn’t concerned with the processing of the signal by the brain. It about the characteristics of that signal, and components of that signal, and if there is a ways to go to improve that signal for audio. If you want to use a different word than “detail” that’s fine, pick your own word.
 

Travis

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Thanks for a good example of when frequency response and standard distortion tests ala spinorama etc, stop short of fully describing the sound of a speaker.
This hasn’t changed:

Richard C. Heyser: “Perhaps more than any other discipline, audio engineering involves not only purely objective characterization but also subjective interpretations. It is the listening experience, that personal and most private sensation, which is the intended result of our labors in audio engineering. No technical measurement, however glorified with mathematics, can escape that fact.”
 

IPunchCholla

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Any good reads on the history of audio transducer designs? I was looking at the Purifi page and they characterize creating long throw low distortion drivers as revolutionary, which seems incremental to me, but without some knowledge of the history it is hard to say.
 

gnarly

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This hasn’t changed:

Richard C. Heyser: “Perhaps more than any other discipline, audio engineering involves not only purely objective characterization but also subjective interpretations. It is the listening experience, that personal and most private sensation, which is the intended result of our labors in audio engineering. No technical measurement, however glorified with mathematics, can escape that fact.”
Dick Heyser is a cornerstone authority, imho.

This SynAudCon video almost seems like at was around the birth of transfer functions that include both frequency magnitude and phase.
And here we are, almost 50 years later...still waiting for mainstream audio to catch up to him Objectively !....

 

fineMen

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I swore I wasn’t going to jump into this, but here goes.

What you are talking about is a completely different aspect of hearing and the auditory process. Things like Nyquist response theory and the brain ...

This particular topic just isn’t concerned with the processing of the signal by the brain. It about the characteristics of that signal, and components of that signal, and if there is a ways to go to improve that signal for audio. If you want to use a different word than “detail” that’s fine, pick your own word.
I was tempted to comment the 'Fast Car', held to be "Boy, nearly as good as white noise!", while I'm sorry for Tracy. She was hooked up in full fleshed falsehood. Fleeing American reality using its icon, the fast car despite common speed limit. Black sarcasm?

If you've not got a sense for all the simplistic, gross studio tricks used here, what are you after to tell me?

You see, I process the 'details'. Even then when the record was issued, which is a long time back. The understanding is in my mind, not the brain does this and that, or the hearing apparatus mechanically forces me to believe something else. Please look up the difference between signal, message, information and meaning. I live with this since the age of 12, and I'm not Sheldon Cooper.

If you don't address me anymore, I'll leave this alone.
 

gnarly

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hey fineman, a guy takes the time to try to detail why your comments are not in sync with what the thread is about...
...and it goes whoosh...right over your head...

This thread is about the physiological detection of detail.
Not the psychological assessment of detail.

Whatever insights you're placing on what you saw at age 12.....why try to make them fit, where they don't?
Not trying to be mean or an asshole...just sayin....
 
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