-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Neumann KH 310A Review (Powered Monitor)
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
As far as the issue of placement of the monitors on as desk, this depends on the specific situation. One must take into account to particular geometry and configuration of the desk. If the angles are such that the desk reflections to do travel to the LP with significant force, then the monitors can and often should be placed on the meter bridge or the desk.
You have to understand the concept of nearfield positioning. The reflections from the desktop or console can be insignificant compared to the closeness of the path from the monitors to the LP. It is physics.
I have two pairs of my Neuman's on stands and two pairs on the desk. It depends on the specifics. One needs to understand and consider the angles of reflection involved. It is also important to consider the vertical disperson patterns of Neumann speakers - which is quite limited - on purpose.
Neumann audio engineers have this figured out - of course. They do not simply rely on simple platitutes. That is why they often place their own monitors on the desk or on the console bridge.
You have to understand the concept of nearfield positioning. The reflections from the desktop or console can be insignificant compared to the closeness of the path from the monitors to the LP. It is physics.
I have two pairs of my Neuman's on stands and two pairs on the desk. It depends on the specifics. One needs to understand and consider the angles of reflection involved. It is also important to consider the vertical disperson patterns of Neumann speakers - which is quite limited - on purpose.
Neumann audio engineers have this figured out - of course. They do not simply rely on simple platitutes. That is why they often place their own monitors on the desk or on the console bridge.
Last edited:
The monitors in this photo are misplaced. You could move the table out from the wall and place the monitors/stands behind the table. According to the Neumann audio engineers, monitors and the listening position should be in an equilateral triangle.
That phrase is not a substitute for a meaningful statement. It is a label, not an explaination.
There is always pretty severe desk bounce in the low mids with a console. It's worse if they're on the meter bridge.
That is a simplistic false statement. Do you think you know more than the Neumann audio engineers?
Do you think you know more than people who actually design studios?
Look it up, it's well explained in plenty of places on the web, it's mostly explained with reference to the front wall, but any boundary (e.g desk) applies.
Hi all,
I've measured and listened to the KH310 against my DIY speakers "Saisho" in an audio lab at listening position, along with 4 other audio engineers:
photos.app.goo.gl
Main take-away:
What would you suggest to improve the KH310 performance in this configuration?
-> Use them nearfield?
-> Put them on a stand next to the Saisho?
-> Any idea for next session?
I might soon have an opportunity to compare to:
I've measured and listened to the KH310 against my DIY speakers "Saisho" in an audio lab at listening position, along with 4 other audio engineers:
REW - 3Way comparison: KH310 Vs Saisho. March2023
15 new items · Album by Nicolas V.
photos.app.goo.gl
Main take-away:
- I confirm the THD issue in 30-50Hz range, realistically only problematic in far field & high levels.
- I used KH310 at -1dB in High Frequency during listening session (measured at 0dB), as I otherwise found the highs to be a bit too much (and -1dB was closer to Saisho voicing)
- Besides the obvious difference in low frequency (driver size, volume), sound stage / imaging was noticeably better on the Saisho.
-> Reason still not clarified, potentially due to:- Less late reflection measured on Saisho (KH310 as wider directivity)
- Better impulse response on the Saisho?
- KH310 were setup too high?
- Bigger physical size on the Saisho? (why?)
- Wind, string instruments were noticeably more natural on the Saisho
- Transients from bottom octave to high mid were snappier on the Saisho, even at medium levels (ie driver power compression / limiters were not contributing)
-> I could not measure nearfield 4ms waterfall, but Saisho's waterfal is extremely fast. Maybe this explains the difference? Or the higher sensitivity of the Saisho?
What would you suggest to improve the KH310 performance in this configuration?
-> Use them nearfield?
-> Put them on a stand next to the Saisho?
-> Any idea for next session?
I might soon have an opportunity to compare to:
- PSI A25-M (11k€)
- Kii Three (14k€)
boxerfan88
Senior Member
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2018
- Messages
- 419
- Likes
- 458
^^
How about (vertically) tilting the KH310 such that its acoustic center points to the MLP/measuring mic?
I have my KH310 placed on top of a floorstander, and I had to vertically tilt it for best sound and good sound-staging.
Secondly, may I suggest you also measure with the UMIK pointing up (need to ensure the correct cal file is loaded). Compare and see how much the curve differs by...
How about (vertically) tilting the KH310 such that its acoustic center points to the MLP/measuring mic?
I have my KH310 placed on top of a floorstander, and I had to vertically tilt it for best sound and good sound-staging.
Secondly, may I suggest you also measure with the UMIK pointing up (need to ensure the correct cal file is loaded). Compare and see how much the curve differs by...
Last edited:
What is the point of these measurements, what do you want to see/compare? If you want to make measurements of the speaker itself, the published data by Neumann, Amir and others is much more valuable. If you want to find a good setup in your room, you should first find a good position for the speakers. The KH310 are clearly in an extremely bad position, their FR looks horrible below 200Hz especially. But of course that is not the speaker's fault, as we know from proper measurements of the speaker itself.Hi all,
I've measured and listened to the KH310 against my DIY speakers "Saisho" in an audio lab at listening position, along with 4 other audio engineers:
REW - 3Way comparison: KH310 Vs Saisho. March2023
15 new items · Album by Nicolas V.
View attachment 276559
Main take-away:
Volume matching was tricky give the light but broad delta in FR, i used dBA on Pink Noise, 0.2dB close.
- I confirm the THD issue in 30-50Hz range, realistically only problematic in far field & high levels.
- I used KH310 at -1dB in High Frequency during listening session (measured at 0dB), as I otherwise found the highs to be a bit too much (and -1dB was closer to Saisho voicing)
- Besides the obvious difference in low frequency (driver size, volume), sound stage / imaging was noticeably better on the Saisho.
-> Reason still not clarified, potentially due to:
- Less late reflection measured on Saisho (KH310 as wider directivity)
- Better impulse response on the Saisho?
- KH310 were setup too high?
- Bigger physical size on the Saisho? (why?)
- Wind, string instruments were noticeably more natural on the Saisho
- Transients from bottom octave to high mid were snappier on the Saisho, even at medium levels (ie driver power compression / limiters were not contributing)
-> I could not measure nearfield 4ms waterfall, but Saisho's waterfal is extremely fast. Maybe this explains the difference? Or the higher sensitivity of the Saisho?
What would you suggest to improve the KH310 performance in this configuration?
-> Use them nearfield?
-> Put them on a stand next to the Saisho?
-> Any idea for next session?
I might soon have an opportunity to compare to:
- PSI A25-M (11k€)
- Kii Three (14k€)
What is the recommended way to position the mic? vertically or horizontally? I thought i read vertically as you suggested but yet i see lots of reviews that are horizontal. Sorry, not trying to derail this post.
Now back to regularly scheduled programming
Already done. they are exactly on axis with microphone/listening position.
What I did not try yet was inverting left/right so that the tweeter was towards the inside.
I loaded the normal microphone calibration file, not the 90 degrees one, so results should be correct.
I was looking for a step/impulse response of the KH310 on internet, and could not find it, so I thought I'd share it here.
Second, this gives a bit more insight on the THD in low frequencies, which I found came in surprisingly early.
Last, I was looking for pointers on how to best setup these speakers: Besides the (obvious) room limitation, I heard 2 users mentioning that putting the speakers high up and tilted down never sounded as good as flat facing the listener.
This room is problematic, next time I'll give them a proper round of placement and a dedicated stand.
This. Located as they are now:
- the listening triangel is wider because the vertical center is the mid range - tweeter line,
- the high position of the woofer leads to cancellation (due to floor and ceiling bounce) at other frequencies than the Saishos.
I am relying on what the Neumann audio engineers have determined. Moreover, the top studio designers often put the monitors on the desks and meter bridges. Your argument is simply validating the postion of the Neumann audio engineers.
Please explain why SBIR does not apply to this speaker?
What are the real issues?
SBIR is false?
It depends on the specific application. You cannot simply throw a handful of mud and expect it to be accurate. In many instances, the configuration of the desk/console and the dispersion pattern of the monitors is such that there are no significant reflections to interfere with the primary sound coming directly from the monitors on a very nearfield basis. Again, consider what Neumann actually shows for its own monitors. Their audio engineers are the experts - not some untrained person who has no knowledge of audio engineering. Just know about the name of an audio factor does not mean it is applicable to every situation.
They are experts but nod god. And keep in mind that pics on the website and in ads are not done by engineers to show how to get the best sound but by marketing people to impress possible buyers. Reflection on the desktop cannot be prevented just by reduced vertical directivity because it does not work at lower frequencies. Been there, done that.
Last edited:
ernestcarl
Major Contributor
Boundary interferences happen and can be easily checked with objective measurements — I use both RTA (real-time analysis while moving the mic around closer and farther away from boundaries) and single/multi-multipoint log sweeps. I suggest REW and a cheap calibrated measurement microphone.
