Another Opinion on Why Vinyl is Better.

[Blumlein 88]

Yep, this thread because of Art's comment above brought a fair doze of zizanie and personal insults.
That's us, who we truly are. ...No better than anyone else, but for some a reason to annihilate few by the worst type of promotional hatred and public insults.

Tell me; if Art is a Stereophile audio writer for all these years, what does it make us?

Well Art and his ilk in time made me a former subscriber. At first the entertaining writing was fine. And I agree Art is just into nostalgia. In time sweet writing became saccharine with no sustenance.

We have been reading all sorts of stuff from audio people/dealers/businessmen...tra-la-la; but that's not a reason to insult other members here?
We discuss from our own humor and freedom of respect; we can disagree with the world, but between us we don't disrespect...because if we do we are no better than our own crappy ego and superiority complex. That makes us worst than the very worst.

Respect works both ways. I ask you NorthSky with respect do you believe someone can be factually wrong?

It isn't always about an ego based superiority complex. It is about advancing understanding. If we have to accept ideas factually right or wrong just to show respect, then we'll never get anywhere except by accident and bumble. Pointing out errors isn't disrespectful or unkind. It actually is a great kindness. We all have ego and tend to not like it, but if we can step back and work through it we benefit. Showing respect for wrong-headed ideas is nowhere near being kind or respectful.

If you wish to learn Art's philosophy and emulate it in part and derive enjoyment from it the way he apparently does that is fine. Just don't confuse it for factual info in a science oriented discussion. We often can learn new enjoyments watching how others approach things. I have some silly joyful pastimes and need not be so serious. Even with audio that describes at least 75% of my audio activities.

This is my new home, I like it here, and the only way for me to go away is to disrespect my co-members, and that, won't happen in a million years.
I thought long and hard about my role in this new small community, and each and every day I am working harder @ accommodating all members, even my enemies. And it's funny that I have enemies here, but I understand why. Because I don't fall into everyone's expectations...the stories of all our lives and of the world we live in. Lol, no way that we can accept others when we already know how much superior we are from all above the rest.

I don't think you have enemies here that I see so far.

And the most funny thing? It means nothing else than our own deception through our own mirror.
Bob and Frank have no science, they shouldn't be allow to speak. But Bob and Frank they never insult the audio scientists, never.
They discuss theories with them, like true scientists do. But even among scientists wars erupt and egos with it and emotional breakdowns, as if music had the power to affect our emotional stance to the point of influencing our calculated and measured audio judgement. ...Not a chance!

I don't know how you have a science oriented forum while throwing out the science. No one said Bob and Frank should not speak. To keep speaking in a non-scientific manner over and over in the middle of science based discussion wears thin pretty quickly. To keep coming around to subjective reference and not recognizing it is at most a preference just doesn't get you far.

 

[fas42]

Frank, ignoring your "experience of listening" for one moment, do you understand that two channel stereo can only reproduce some very low level facsimile of a live event and thus you should never expect it to technically produce the soundfield as the live event (unless of course that live event started with the sound of two speakers making the sound, then you can come much closer with stereo at home). If a recording of a live unamplified event ever sounds correct to you, its because your ear/brain accepts it within its limitations, it is never but a weak facsimile of the original event, and if you have that ability then that's a big plus for you in your own world, but many of us are not convinced so are more interested in the recordings qualities that we like.

The bolded is exactly it, Tom, that nails it - of course the original soundfield is not recreated, but my brain doesn't care, because it's filled the gaps, completely. AJ, etc, play the "thick as a brick" game, but that's what ASA research is now doing, demonstrating in very precise ways how the brain is capable of performing this "trick". What is not appreciated is that the brain is not a fool with regard to being deluded - a behaviour that some here are trying to mimic - and if the clues that the sound is being faked are too strong, then the delusion, or illusion fails. This is not consciously being done, it's buried deep inside the brain's working - one of the key results from ASA is that they can 'make' the mind believe something which is not there, and then slowly ease back on the level of the effect until suddenly the brain snaps out of it, and now sees "what's really happening".

When I first started getting this the big frustration was that I was right on the edge of the brain snapping in, and snapping out - one moment illusion, the next, back to normal audio. The ongoing experimenting has been to get a handle on what's important, and what's not important, in making this behaviour trigger.

I could say that I was part of a small group only that "got" it, but for the fact that the others around me also pick that something special is happening - only people obsessed with the usual hifi "gee whizzery" seem to have trouble tuning into what's going on.

 

[fas42]

Maybe take a longer one. For one thing, 'his' conclusions in his book are often the conclusions of others' work that he's summarizing.

IIRC from that video, Toole refers to your method as...'useless'. I'm inclined to agree.

I've got a pretty good handle on where he's coming from - and in key areas where the real meat is, from my POV, he slides very quickly straight across it - not enough is known is his attitude, and I would agree with that, but then the possible value therein is left out in the cold.

People seem to struggle with the idea that I use music to expose weaknesses, rather than decide whether something "sounds better" than something else. For example, if listening to an unknown system for the first time I'll put on a driving, high energy, complex pop piece with lots of effects, and keep winding up the volume. At some point the system will start to collapse, the sound will degenerate into a raucous mess; then I'll slowly back off until the sound regains its posture, I now have a limit of competence, and I can move back and forth through that limit and carefully listen to what's happening - this gives me clues as to where the system needs work.

 

[fas42]

Could very well be illusion, delusion, or just plain ole expectation bias. Without submitting your deductions to measurement and then the results supported with DBT's by a group of experienced listeners, you have nothing to offer to those interested in High Fidelity and advancing the SOTA beyond guesses and opinion.

Sorry, doesn't cut it. It is an illusion, but it's a highly beneficial one - historically, it happened during a demonstration of an ambitious horn based system at the Paris audio show, about 15 years ago - a whole room of people were subjected to this sound. Pano, a member of diyAudio forum, realised what was going on, and then spent years chasing it as well - there's no going back once you experience it.

A very good analogy to your approach. The exhaust note would tell you nothing in a real world examination of two different cars beyond one persons personal preferences.

I AM that mechanic and I might give a quick guess as to the noise by listening, even take the vehicle for a ride to gather further subjective input. But before I would proceed in any direction I would plug in the diagnostic computer and run a full workup, pull out some tools such as a compression and leakdown testing, exhaust gas analyzer, etc. Use all the science I have at hand to deduce the issue before taking any rash and unsupported approach.
Without a scientific approach to diagnostics I could chase my tail for days and never pinpoint the real reason for the issue.

And that's also what I do. I have tools at my disposal, largely my knowledge of electronics, I'm an EE, and the ability to use software to explore the behaviour of real world electrical circuits. I do a step at a time, re-evaluate, and continue in that vein - at the time I devoured all the literature that was around, but nobody was talking about what I was getting, so I had to do the experimenting my way only.

 

[RayDunzl]

I'm an EE

Fooled me!

 

[fas42]

There you go, shows the power of the mind to be deluded, eh ...?

Unlike some EEs, I'm not into ritualistic behaviour, following the herd over the cliff - if I experience something that intrigues me I'll explore it, I'm not interested in kissing the feet of Authority Figures who Have All The Answers ...

 

[RayDunzl]

It's up to him to apologize for calling me an imbecile.

It translated like this for me:

mon cher nigaud -> my dear simpleton

I took French in school, but it didn't stick.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It translated like this for me:

mon cher nigaud -> my dear simpleton

I took French in school, but it didn't stick.

I know a wee (oui) little bit of French and read it as my dear fool. A native French speaker didn't disagree though it wasn't the only translation that fit. Of course none of the translations make it anything other than an uncalled for insult.

 

[RayDunzl]

I try not to let text on a screen upset me too much.

YMMV

 

[NorthSky]

It's perfectly natural what you just said. That's a very good attitude and courage you have; inspiring.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I'm an EE

I'm Batman. I can fly.

 

[TBone]

... try not to let text on a screen upset you too much!

mentioned that to my girlfriend once, just dug deeper, never again ...

 

[Thomas savage]

I'm Batman. I can fly.

I encourage you to test that hypothesis...

 

[Sal1950]

+1. Hoping this place will be better by the way it is different.

+2

 

[Sal1950]

I'm Batman. I can fly.

AJ could you present some evidence. LOL JK

 

[fas42]

I encourage you to test that hypothesis...

You do have to admire AJ - he has a great repertoire of quips ... http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...at-is-measurable-thread.214/page-17#post-6803

 

[Thomas savage]

You do have to admire AJ - he has a great repertoire of quips ... http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...at-is-measurable-thread.214/page-17#post-6803

Yes he repeats more than 70's sitcoms on the bbc..,

archetypal broken record ironically

 

[Thomas savage]

+2

No hope needed just effort and that's free to boot

In the words of Jean luc pichard...

" make it so"

 

[Sal1950]

Yes, I too, began reading Stereophile magazine ages ago. I think the great Gordon Holt had a lot on the ball, unlike most other reviewers. You must, therefore, remember that he was the first high end writer to embrace digital audio as a breakthrough, imperfect though he acknowledged it was at the time.

I've been a Stereophile subscriber since issue 7 or 8 and read every issue since #1. Todays believers like to give the impression that Gordon started the mag to get away from the measurement based reviews that were somewhat the order of the day back then. Nothing could be further from the truth, Gordon fled to be free of the advertiser dollar guided prison that had put a choke hold on his ablity to write honest reviews.
I still will always hold Gordon in the highest esteem and personally rue the day he brought in the sharpies and con men that slowly pushed him out and now rule the roost.

 

[Sal1950]

Yes he repeats more than 70's sitcoms on the bbc..,

archetypal broken record ironically

He may be a bit brash but I like his approach, it is direct and honest. He doesn't try to blow a huge smoke screen to cover mal-intent or mis-direct to avoid direct answers to questions.
The real world isn't always love and roses.