$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Inner Space]

@Inner Space Thanks for chiming in here. Given you have rep experience with the Jubilees, what are your thoughts? What other speakers do you have experience with and how do they compare to the Jubilees?

I'm an old studio guy who has heard and used practically everything. Somewhat contra your search, I don't believe there's an endgame - merely several enticing flavors of almost-there. That said, for the last several years I have been really, really enjoying JBL 4367s for leisure listening. I like extreme transparency to the master tape (which I can judge by listening to one of my own) but with a relaxing, at-home-not-work downtilt through the octaves. The 4367s do great, but the Jubilees were just way-more-so ... utterly effortless, with no sensation at all of actual transducers doing anything - just an immense soundstage hanging there in the room. I'm not clear yet whether the (outboard) DSP does FR-shaping as well as crossing over and time alignment, but my perception of the result was smooth and relatively flat, with limitless punch and dynamics. Never any impression of approaching distortion or compression. Short answer, even a cynical old curmudgeon like me was impressed enough to shell out.

 

[MKR]

I'm an old studio guy who has heard and used practically everything. Somewhat contra your search, I don't believe there's an endgame - merely several enticing flavors of almost-there. That said, for the last several years I have been really, really enjoying JBL 4367s for leisure listening. I like extreme transparency to the master tape (which I can judge by listening to one of my own) but with a relaxing, at-home-not-work downtilt through the octaves. The 4367s do great, but the Jubilees were just way-more-so ... utterly effortless, with no sensation at all of actual transducers doing anything - just an immense soundstage hanging there in the room. I'm not clear yet whether the (outboard) DSP does FR-shaping as well as crossing over and time alignment, but my perception of the result was smooth and relatively flat, with limitless punch and dynamics. Never any impression of approaching distortion or compression. Short answer, even a cynical old curmudgeon like me was impressed enough to shell out.

Thank you! Very helpful. Definitely seems I need to give the Jubilees a listen.

 

[Bugal1998]

I would love to hear them, but finding a place to audition somewhat close to me has been darn near impossible. I am sure I can find somewhere, including the Harman experience center in LA, but it becomes a more involved and complex (and expensive) “expedition”.

Sometimes I wonder if JBL cares much about selling their higher end offerings given how difficult it is to audition them.

Yup, I get it... And there's plenty of gear I didn't get to hear before deciding on a speaker for similar reasons.

The JBL distribution model is definitely a head scratcher. The Synthesis dealer nearest me had predominantly Dynaudio on display, and a few other brands to a lesser extent. No JBLs for 2-channel, only in-walls in their theater.

I'd guess their proaudio line (churches, concert venues, theaters, stadiums, studios) and OEM automotive partnerships are their money makers, and maintaining a robust brick & morter dealer network isn't worth the investment.

 

[steve59]

I miss the low volume dynamics that tend to come as baggage with big full range, passive floor standers and last weekend out of boredom I brought home a pair of Mc 611's with a C49 to drive my big speakers. I didn't expect much as the mac's are rated at 600 watts any load and the h590 is rated at 525 into 4, but actually comes much closer to 600 wpc, so unsurprising at rock levels the speakers there wasn't really much different happening, what was surprising was how much more open, detailed and dynamic my system sounds at low volume! I don't design amps and am relieved that for the extra $10k the mac kit delivers it just surprised where all that power showed up. Too bad I don't have a pair of salon 2's around to check these muscle amps out on.

 

[Emlin]

I miss the low volume dynamics that tend to come as baggage with big full range, passive floor standers and last weekend out of boredom I brought home a pair of Mc 611's with a C49 to drive my big speakers. I didn't expect much as the mac's are rated at 600 watts any load and the h590 is rated at 525 into 4, but actually comes much closer to 600 wpc, so unsurprising at rock levels the speakers there wasn't really much different happening, what was surprising was how much more open, detailed and dynamic my system sounds at low volume! I don't design amps and am relieved that for the extra $10k the mac kit delivers it just surprised where all that power showed up. Too bad I don't have a pair of salon 2's around to check these muscle amps out on.

I presume that your testing was done blind and level matched.

 

[Mr. Widget]

If you're looking for dynamics and good directivity, maybe it's time to revisit finding a way to hear the JBL M2 and/or 4367?

I haven't heard the 4367s, but I assume in terms of dynamics they are similar to the M2s. I don't find the M2s to be the last word in dynamics. The DD67000s and most likely the Klipsch Jubilees offer a far more dynamic presentation in terms of both micro and macro dynamics. The DD67000s are surprisingly neutral without any DSP but can be difficult to place in a room.

 

[Mr. Widget]

The JBL distribution model is definitely a head scratcher.

Ya think?
It is kind of like they are doing their best to not sell their seriously well engineered products.

 

[Bugal1998]

I haven't heard the 4367s, but I assume in terms of dynamics they are similar to the M2s. I don't find the M2s to be the last word in dynamics. The DD6700s and most likely the Klipsch Jubilees offer a far more dynamic presentation in terms of both micro and macro dynamics. The DD6700s are surprisingly neutral without any DSP but can be difficult to place in a room.

Agreed, and no one (especially not me) has claimed otherwise. But I also doubt the Legacy Aeris, Salon 2, or any other speaker auditioned thus far is the last word on dynamics, either. Nor am I under the impression that dynamics are all MKR cares about, they're but one criteria...

The DD67s are beyond the budget, and the neutrality and on/off-axis response of the Jubilee is an unknown (at least to me). The M2 isn't the last word on those criteria either, but they're a known quantity and can be EQ'd with knowledge, and the performance is respectable across the board. It's a reasonably well balanced speaker, and it's not out of the realm of possibility that the combination of respectably wide dispersion, respectable dynamics, and respectable nuetrailty could strike the right balance for him. The Jubilee might as well, who knows.

 

[steve59]

I presume that your testing was done blind and level matched.

Here's the thing, once I blinded myself I couldn't read the meter to tell if the level was matched or not. Seriously tho' what fq do you want matched to do the comparison? ok seriously now, then i'll need everybody to come over bring sledghammers, studs, drywall and maybe carpet to simulate each thread contributors listening room size and treatments as anything less would be sacrilegious to the devout that think anybody that spends $30k on a pair of speakers is bananas anyhow. forget being serious

and get some of the best weed ya can smoke and listen to a clock radio, same results and unanimous agreement as nobody wants to kill a buzz arguing when ya can't even feel your lips.

 

[benanders]

If you're looking for dynamics and good directivity, maybe it's time to revisit finding a way to hear the JBL M2 and/or 4367?

The room and Trinnov optimization are contributing factors, but I'd say I'm enjoying an enveloping 'holographic' soundstage (best I've heard without a doubt), incredible output & dynamics, tonal neutrality, and finesse. That doesn't mean you would find either of them to your liking, but recent developments in your search suggest skipping the latest big JBLs may be short-changing your search.

I think I’d have a hard time teasing apart your JBL performance over competitors, vs. your room’s contribution.
I mean that in a good way

Edit: autocorrect-induced typo fixed

 

[Bugal1998]

I think I’d have a hard time teasing apart your JBL performance over competitors, vs. your room’s contribution.
I mean that in a good way

Edit: autocorrect-induced typo fixed

You're right about that, no doubt... No exaggeration, I didn't even recognize them as the same speakers in the new room (also in a good way!).

 

[sigbergaudio]

Designing a good controlled-directivity speaker is no picnic, and I don't think Legacy has the chops to do it in the way that, say, B&O can. Those side-by-side midranges on the Legacy V and sideways ribbons with no waveguide are pretty simplistic, and don't inspire a lot of confidence that they got it right.

Also, this is what Legacy says about their design capabilities:

https://legacyaudio.com/design/building-a-legacy

Yeah, OK, not good enough in my book, not in 2023.

Out of curiosity, what would you expect / what would be good enough?

 

[Soniclife]

Seriously tho' what fq do you want matched to do the comparison?

Is the speakers frequency response measurably different between the amps? And does the difference change with volume?

 

[Lsc]

I miss the low volume dynamics that tend to come as baggage with big full range, passive floor standers and last weekend out of boredom I brought home a pair of Mc 611's with a C49 to drive my big speakers. I didn't expect much as the mac's are rated at 600 watts any load and the h590 is rated at 525 into 4, but actually comes much closer to 600 wpc, so unsurprising at rock levels the speakers there wasn't really much different happening, what was surprising was how much more open, detailed and dynamic my system sounds at low volume! I don't design amps and am relieved that for the extra $10k the mac kit delivers it just surprised where all that power showed up. Too bad I don't have a pair of salon 2's around to check these muscle amps out on.

The salon2 has excellent low volume dynamics and of course the more power the better. I normally like to listen at “realistic” volumes but it’s nice when you turn the volume down and it’s still so exciting to listen to.

 

[MKR]

Out of curiosity, what would you expect / what would be good enough?

@sigbergaudio Welcome to crazy town (this thread), great to have you here sir

 

[sigbergaudio]

@sigbergaudio Welcome to crazy town (this thread), great to have you here sir

Thank you! The discussion is obviously conceptually interesting, but it sort of spun out so I haven't been able to follow. I think I looked at it last when it was 30 pages long or something, now suddenly 90 and many strong opinions.

I admit I haven't read all 60 pages in between, so my apologies if you've just answered this - But what have you learned so far, and are you closer to concluding in any direction? Active, passive, floorstander, stand mount, any narrowing of scope at all?

 

[MKR]

Thank you! The discussion is obviously conceptually interesting, but it sort of spun out so I haven't been able to follow. I think I looked at it last when it was 30 pages long or something, now suddenly 90 and many strong opinions.

I admit I haven't read all 60 pages in between, so my apologies if you've just answered this - But what have you learned so far, and are you closer to concluding in any direction? Active, passive, floorstander, stand mount, any narrowing of scope at all?

Yup, quite a few posts here, and strong opinions to be sure. But, for the most part folks have remained very civil and kind. So far so good. I suspect the larger issue is folks just want me to make up my frickin mind, I have been all over the place recently, even driving myself nuts. But that’s ok, this is a true “quest” as noted in the title, I fully expected this was going to be a journey and take some time, and I am certainly enjoying the ride and learning a lot along the way (and I hope others are also, which was my intent from beginning).

As to your last questions, boy are those loaded … Of all the systems I have heard to date, the Revel Salon 2 and Legacy Aeris has risen to the top. I was very close to pulling the trigger on the Salon 2 and most recently the Aeris unexpectedly threw a wrench in my spokes, and I got vapor locked. Then I recently heard of the Klipsch Jubilee and off I go in a completely different direction. Like I said, even driving myself nuts at this point.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Sounds like you're focusing on large floorstanders then at least?

 

[MKR]

Sounds like you're focusing on large floorstanders then at least?

Yup, full range floorstanders for me or bust

 

[Absolute]

The Salon 2's suddenly appeared in the used listings near me for around 8k $. Anybody want to chime in around 7999 so I can buy them and report a comparison between it and my M2's in my own home?