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- #1,901
Maybe the owner of those Salon 2s will bring them over to your place for a shootout?
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$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker
- Thread starter MKR
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- #1,903
Maybe the Salon owner is interested in the M2s … win-win
I was looking at a lower price point, but had a similar experience. In the end, there are usually several options that you could be long-term happy with. The trick, for me anyway, is not getting caught up in the idea that you are missing out on something earth-shattering, or 'veil-lifting' by making one choice or the other.
I've become convinced, though, that choosing the best-measuring among the ones you like (distortion at volume, dispersion, FR) makes sense inasmuch as you have a lot of flexibility to tailor it to your room. Some expensive options are 'head-in-a-vice' great which, for me at least, is going to take many hours of listening away from me just because I like to hang out with my wife while listening. I used to have my system down in a finished basement where I could do as I like. I didn't go down there very often. So the system that I can adapt to my living room is the system I'm going to enjoy.
I haven't heard some of these. Legacy made one of the speakers I thought I could long-term live with (Focus SE) when I was auditioning. KEF (Ref 5) and Harbeth (SHL5+) were the others. Subsequently I've added Revel 228Be to my country house system, in a difficult space (mid-century modern with angled ceilings, hard surfaces, a wall of glass doors, etc.), and, with some EQ, it's worked out really well.
It may be that the search itself is fun for you? It was not for me. Not because I don't enjoy trying gear, but because I just couldn't abide the bullshit and upselling from the salespeople while I was doing it.
MarkS
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Anechoic chamber or Klippel
That's certainly useful, especially to document the response - but I wouldn't say it's absolutely necessary to the experienced builder. Measuring off-axis response will be more accurate / less time consuming, and also the area below 3-400hz is also more time consuming to verify without this, but not impossible.
Very wise words.
Another (perhaps less incisive) way of putting it would be to say that at this level we shouldn't be looking for "something earth-shattering or 'veil-lifting'", because what we really ought to want is something that's just exceptionally competent across a range of parameters (LF extension, linear FR, smooth dispersion, constant directivity, lack of dynamic compression).
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Holy cow! I'm blown away someone here ordered those speakers! Just on the size and looks/concept alone I'd love to hear them, but your description adds to the desire. Nowhere I know to hear them in Toronto, though. (And if there was, I wouldn't want to pretend I was going to buy them to hear them. If an audio store had no problem cranking them up for someone just to hear them, then I'd take up that offer).
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Ugh, this can be so true... The worst experience I had was a dealer that wanted to put together a bid; I told them I wasn't interested, but they insisted because they thought 'I would be surprised at how cost effectively they could deliver'. So I let them, making very clear I wanted obscene amounts of subwoofer output (even provided them with my plan!), that I didn't believe in speaker cable and interconnect differences (quality bulk speaker cable was fine in a large enough gauge), etc...
They came back with the two most expensive 10" in-wall subs they carried (but didn't spec enough amp channels), and allocated $70k(!!!) to speaker wire and interconnects. They were dead serious, too. What a bunch of jokers...
Sounds like MKR has managed to avoid those experiences thus far.
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Speaking of bad dealer experiences, I had one that brought up the ethical question: How obliged do you feel to purchase from a dealer who provided a poor auditioning service?
I've always tried to be conscientious about wasting any dealer's time - I've known a number of them and I feel for how difficult the business can be, especially dealing with tire-kickers or worse, people who use their facilities to audition a speaker with the intention of buying it over the internet cheaper.
However, I had this scenario occur:
I was very interested in some Harbeth speakers. A local audio store was a dealer so I asked if I could come down and hear the pair I was interested in possibly purchasing. It was a large store and I specifically went when I knew there would be very little other traffic in the store.
I brought some of my test CDs. A salesman (young guy) brought me to the Harbeth set up, I sat down, and then basically took over the system "for me."
That is, if I wanted to listen to a track I had to hand him the CD, he'd put it in, he'd ask what track and use the remote to select it, he'd operate the volume on the pre-amp, and he'd stand there staring at me often jabbering with sales pitch WHILE I'm trying to listen! It was already established beforehand I was a long time audiophile and worked in sound post production. It's not like I was clueless about how to operate a CD remote or a volume control. I'm not a friggin' child, just hand me the remotes and get lost like most other decent audio places. But no, it was this incredibly awkward scenario until I finally asked, very politely, if I could have time just listening to them on my own. With a hurumph the dude left me to listen. Then he came back in about 10 or 15 minutes - I'd barely got through any of my test tracks - turned the sound all the way down and started in "well, what do you think? Would you like to buy them?" Basically "that's all ya get, buying or not?" There was NO other customers in the store, he and the rest of the sales guys were literally hanging around looking at their phones, so no reason at all to rush me, but...it was just about this guy wanting to get a sale as fast as possible, and that was that.
I had expressed the fact I would purchase the speakers in the most expensive finish if I liked them (it was the finish I liked best and I'm very fussy about that).
And they were EXPENSIVE. But this guy was trying to push through a sale as fast as possible. I gave up, and left totally pissed off.
My audio pals said they'd never buy anything from a place that operated like that.
But...still...I was interested in getting a better listen to those speakers. So my compromise is that I found a pair of the same speakers second hand, on-line, but not in the finish I wanted. But I grabbed them to essentially give myself an in-home audition of the speakers. If I really liked them, I would sell those, and go back to the dealer and purchase a pair new in the finish I wanted. I don't know that dealer even deserved that...but it's what I was left with.
(As it happens, I didn't love the Harbeth speakers enough over the ones I already owned, to keep them).
I'm curious about other people's thoughts on these type of scenarios.
Me too!!! Hopefully they will be at Axpona but I couldn’t see them in my family room where my salon2 is. My room just isn’t big enough for such huge speakers. The Jubilee looks so huge, they probably would look better in a large room vs my modest space.
I’m sure the dynamics are just unbelievable. But honestly the aesthetics would be tough and I saw that the horn driver has spring clips for speaker terminals. That’s a bit sketchy imho.
MarkS
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@MattHooper: I guess I would have changed the process sooner: "I'm sorry, but I really need to be able to control everything myself. I'll need at least an hour of uninterrupted listening to evalute these properly."
But yeah, I would feel no obligation at all to buy from a store like that. They didn't provide the service you needed.
My all-time favorite audio store was The Audible Difference in Palo Alto, my intro to high-end audio in the late 70s. Fantastic store, absolutely zero pressure, and they treated the potential buyer of their least expensive products (me!) just as well as the biggest spenders.
But yeah, I would feel no obligation at all to buy from a store like that. They didn't provide the service you needed.
My all-time favorite audio store was The Audible Difference in Palo Alto, my intro to high-end audio in the late 70s. Fantastic store, absolutely zero pressure, and they treated the potential buyer of their least expensive products (me!) just as well as the biggest spenders.
Each of the local audio dealers has received thousands of dollars in business from me: a/v receivers, streamers, CD transports, speakers for secondary systems, sound bars, TVs, etc. have all been purchased locally to help support them; even the crazy dealer I referenced above was given some business for their time. I appreciate having them around and spend money with them whenever it reasonably makes sense to do so.
If I'm not looking to buy something and just want to audition, I tell them up front... I've had them ask me to come back during off hours, and I happily comply.
Now exiting the off-topic tangent...
- Thread Starter
- #1,914
Well said and fully agree. FOMO is a real thing. But I am not in that position (yet), rather spending this kind of dough I want to make sure I perform utmost diligence and get it right. But, there will ALWAYS be something new, something “better”. And you are also correct, once you get to this level and have listened to as many speakers as I have, highly unlikely I will find something that is exponentially better, rather just different. Case in point, the Salons vs the Aeris … I could likely live and be very happy with either, but they do have a slightly different sonic portrayal and characteristics, enough such that I can’t really decide which one I would prefer in the long term. So I am stuck at this point. And if I am stuck anyway, then should I not continue to seek out additional auditions just to make sure? Which is exactly where I am now.
As to sleazy sales folk, they definitely exist in this biz, but fortunately I have only come across one of those thus far, and most certainly they did not and will not be getting my business. All other dealers have been simply outstanding, truly upstanding folks and it has been a joy to spend time with all of them.
benanders
Senior Member
I suspect anyone with a history of visiting brick-and-mortar shops would’ve seen a fair span of the spectrum in seller tactics.
The account of @MattHooper (IIRC?) of the dealer who gave the in-home audition while sitting between the speakers looking at the listener / prospective buyer, I’ll not forget the mental image that conjured. “Hey, bud, don’t you have a call to make outside…?” Matt you type like someone who has considerable reflective ability and an accommodating nature; I could be wrong, but that’s how your tone goes and those speaker auditions you recounted seem like situations where your dealer-visitor / kid-on-sales-floor lacked sense in their chosen trade. And you were non-confrontational about it. Nice of you.
I chalk up that sort of seller behavior(s) to being like anything else in life - some people who choose (or land in) a job just don’t wind up being good at it, be it for lack of interest or instincts, common sense, educability or something else. And some of them sell audio kit.
I go in with the mindset I probably won’t be left alone by someone hoping to make a sale. And that I will be accosted about how critical a synergistic upgrade amounting to more than I want, should prove.
So instead of preemptively getting dealership jitters each time, I handle each first encounter like I would if taking a toddler into a grocery store with me while I shop ingredients for a massive holiday feast: I pretext the ordeal with my several expectations and simple, concise rules, and I define the outcome if they aren’t met. It’s pleasing how often it works. Not always, but very often.
The first time encounters that are naturally great and organic can be relatively few, so for the big decision one-time trips, I’ve BYOB’ed (Brought My Own Bourbon). Literally. I’ve never done that at a shop I felt didn’t deserve my biz - bottle stays in the saddlebag those times.
One of my better fist-time encounters was when I met with the former distributor of Ortofon for my area. Top-tier resort-grade shop run by a man of genuine class, that distributed several aggressive boutique brands to an highly affluent market. We hit it off and after some listening-just-for-the-fun-of-it (on a quiet day), I was, without warning, rung up with a considerable discount on my stylus - it amounted to a lot of money not spent by me, we’ll say.
After that, I used a vinyl connection of mine, to acquire a NOS Japan press copy of his favorite demo LP (Sade, his was a Canadian pressing bought when he was in Uni of Toronto) the next time I visited; the album cost me a fraction of what he saved me on the stylus, but I could tell it was a gesture he wasn’t accustomed to seeing from his clients.
Always remember, positive experiences go both ways, and dealers have a lot of customer encounters that might shape who they are and how they act. Not always, but very often
The account of @MattHooper (IIRC?) of the dealer who gave the in-home audition while sitting between the speakers looking at the listener / prospective buyer, I’ll not forget the mental image that conjured. “Hey, bud, don’t you have a call to make outside…?” Matt you type like someone who has considerable reflective ability and an accommodating nature; I could be wrong, but that’s how your tone goes and those speaker auditions you recounted seem like situations where your dealer-visitor / kid-on-sales-floor lacked sense in their chosen trade. And you were non-confrontational about it. Nice of you.
I chalk up that sort of seller behavior(s) to being like anything else in life - some people who choose (or land in) a job just don’t wind up being good at it, be it for lack of interest or instincts, common sense, educability or something else. And some of them sell audio kit.
I go in with the mindset I probably won’t be left alone by someone hoping to make a sale. And that I will be accosted about how critical a synergistic upgrade amounting to more than I want, should prove.
So instead of preemptively getting dealership jitters each time, I handle each first encounter like I would if taking a toddler into a grocery store with me while I shop ingredients for a massive holiday feast: I pretext the ordeal with my several expectations and simple, concise rules, and I define the outcome if they aren’t met. It’s pleasing how often it works. Not always, but very often.
The first time encounters that are naturally great and organic can be relatively few, so for the big decision one-time trips, I’ve BYOB’ed (Brought My Own Bourbon). Literally. I’ve never done that at a shop I felt didn’t deserve my biz - bottle stays in the saddlebag those times.
One of my better fist-time encounters was when I met with the former distributor of Ortofon for my area. Top-tier resort-grade shop run by a man of genuine class, that distributed several aggressive boutique brands to an highly affluent market. We hit it off and after some listening-just-for-the-fun-of-it (on a quiet day), I was, without warning, rung up with a considerable discount on my stylus - it amounted to a lot of money not spent by me, we’ll say.
After that, I used a vinyl connection of mine, to acquire a NOS Japan press copy of his favorite demo LP (Sade, his was a Canadian pressing bought when he was in Uni of Toronto) the next time I visited; the album cost me a fraction of what he saved me on the stylus, but I could tell it was a gesture he wasn’t accustomed to seeing from his clients.
Always remember, positive experiences go both ways, and dealers have a lot of customer encounters that might shape who they are and how they act. Not always, but very often
- Thread Starter
- #1,916
That experience is exactly one of the things we all hate about this goofy hobby. Snake oil peddlers. Sorry you experienced that, complete waste of your time.
And yes, except one dealer, I have been very fortunate. Most dealers have averaged about 1-2 hours with me during auditions, and one spent entire afternoon and into evening … about 6 hours! These are dealers that are passionate about the MUSIC and want to share that joy with others, not about selling something to someone. Of course it is how they make their living and they need to sell, but when you treat people like that, the sales come, always.
On the ultimate speaker... got to be Kii. I am considering them, but it's a lot of expense for perhaps 2% more enjoyment than I have as is... and only for a few recordings that I use a reference. And they are super modular to boot when it coms to adjusting them to future room sizes if there are changes.
On the dealer front, yeah bad experiences suck. You go somewhere because you are interested in speakers, they ask you what else is in your system, and then proceed to trash your existing system claiming it's not up to the speakers you are looking into (and it's an Accuphase amp, so ... seriously?). That kind of stupidity is one that I have encountered several times, and it's the worst kind of salesmanship possible. "Close the damn speaker sale!"- *then* follow up with suggestions...
On the dealer front, yeah bad experiences suck. You go somewhere because you are interested in speakers, they ask you what else is in your system, and then proceed to trash your existing system claiming it's not up to the speakers you are looking into (and it's an Accuphase amp, so ... seriously?). That kind of stupidity is one that I have encountered several times, and it's the worst kind of salesmanship possible. "Close the damn speaker sale!"- *then* follow up with suggestions...
- Thread Starter
- #1,918
That is terrible and no bueno. My guess is this dealer had/has been burned multiple times by tire kickers (who then shop around on internet for better deal) and he was fully protecting himself. Not an excuse, but this happens a lot. These days it is very difficult to have a successful HEA B&M shop, very different times we live in now in his hobby vs 70s-90s.
- Thread Starter
- #1,919
Very, very well said, thank you for sharing. I fully concur with your commentsI suspect anyone with a history of visiting brick-and-mortar shops would’ve seen a fair span of the spectrum in seller tactics.
The account of @MattHooper (IIRC?) of the dealer who gave the in-home audition while sitting between the speakers looking at the listener / prospective buyer, I’ll not forget the mental image that conjured. “Hey, bud, don’t you have a call to make outside…?” Matt you type like someone who has considerable reflective ability and an accommodating nature; I could be wrong, but that’s how your tone goes and those speaker auditions you recounted seem like situations where your dealer-visitor / kid-on-sales-floor lacked sense in their chosen trade. And you were non-confrontational about it. Nice of you.
I chalk up that sort of seller behavior(s) to being like anything else in life - some people who choose (or land in) a job just don’t wind up being good at it, be it for lack of interest or instincts, common sense, educability or something else. And some of them sell audio kit.
I go in with the mindset I probably won’t be left alone by someone hoping to make a sale. And that I will be accosted about how critical a synergistic upgrade amounting to more than I want, should prove.
So instead of preemptively getting dealership jitters each time, I handle each first encounter like I would if taking a toddler into a grocery store with me while I shop ingredients for a massive holiday feast: I pretext the ordeal with my several expectations and simple, concise rules, and I define the outcome if they aren’t met. It’s pleasing how often it works. Not always, but very often.
The first time encounters that are naturally great and organic can be relatively few, so for the big decision one-time trips, I’ve BYOB’ed (Brought My Own Bourbon). Literally. I’ve never done that at a shop I felt didn’t deserve my biz - bottle stays in the saddlebag those times.
One of my better fist-time encounters was when I met with the former distributor of Ortofon for my area. Top-tier resort-grade shop run by a man of genuine class, that distributed several aggressive boutique brands to an highly affluent market. We hit it off and after some listening-just-for-the-fun-of-it (on a quiet day), I was, without warning, rung up with a considerable discount on my stylus - it amounted to a lot of money not spent by me, we’ll say.
After that, I used a vinyl connection of mine, to acquire a NOS Japan press copy of his favorite demo LP (Sade, his was a Canadian pressing bought when he was in Uni of Toronto) the next time I visited; the album cost me a fraction of what he saved me on the stylus, but I could tell it was a gesture he wasn’t accustomed to seeing from his clients.
Always remember, positive experiences go both ways, and dealers have a lot of customer encounters that might shape who they are and how they act. Not always, but very often
- Thread Starter
- #1,920
Spent a reasonable amount of time with the Kiis. A good design indeed, but not what I am looking for. You can read my audition impressions some several pages back now.
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