Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[antcollinet]

Yes, your argument is as valid, but the point is it belogs to sub-group. That you cant see somehow.

Measurements are not relevant if anyone cannot hear the difference. They are tiny details, which are less relevant in bigger picture. They are important and good to know, but mainly people are hearing the device, not fell in love its measurements.

Same for F1. The driver gets paid $30 000 000 and the guy who measure everything gets paid $50 000?

This sub discussion started with your statement that you preferred one DAC chip over another "I don't know why - perhaps something intuitive that can't be measured"

This whole sub discussion (at least from my point ov view) has been about refuting that statment - there is nothing you can hear (no matter how intuitive) that can't be measured. You moved it on to a discussion of the importance of talent. Doesn't matter : Talent cant magically make the unmeasurable, audible.

At no point have I said talent is unimportant - it is just irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Mnyb]

But what if someone built a $ 200.- DAC inside a beautiful crafted and huge box... would this work ?

Inside a beautiful active speaker for example

My kit looks a bit silly and old impressive looking Meridian 5.1 system , with a raspberry PI hanging off an coax cable as the source , a little plastic thingy with blinking led’s .
This kind of visual disconnect migth not please everyone .

 

[Aleksandar RS]

It's a mind game car manufacturers play with you.

Why speedometers go to 140 or 160 mph, even if cars can't drive that fast

Your average minivan or sedan will never go faster than 100 mph, so why does the speedometer go far above that?

www.businessinsider.com

I meant the max speed that the car can reach, not the max speed that is written on the speedometer. I thought that goes without saying.

 

[Killingbeans]

They are important and good to know, but mainly people are hearing the device, not fell in love its measurements.

I think you'd be surprised if we did some actual statistics. Expectation bias does not discriminate between poetry and impressive measurements.

The crux of the matter is that people mainly hear what they want to hear.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I meant the max speed that the car can reach, not the max speed that is written on the speedometer. I thought that goes without saying.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

If it will be easier for you, here it is:
If, you think that if the car has a max speed of 145 and the other 200, they will drive 140 with the same effort, I agree with you, and I agree that all cars are the same and what else is needed. It turns out you're right. Just don't get upset.

 

[DonR]

I meant the max speed that the car can reach, not the max speed that is written on the speedometer. I thought that goes without saying.

That is not correct either. The ease of driving a car at speed has as much to do with steering and suspension as it does with the mechanical ability to reach a certain speed.

This is why I hate analogies, they can be twisted in any direction. A DAC with a SINAD of 120db will not sound any less noisy than a DAC with a SINAD of 119db if the content it is playing has a SINAD of 96db. The extra headroom in SINAD is wasted. Period.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

That is not correct either. The ease of driving a car at speed has as much to do with steering and suspension as it does with the mechanical ability to reach a certain speed.

If the maximum speed of the car is 145, and you are going 140, the engine will work at the limit, it will heat up more, it will be quite loud in the cabin. If you go 140 in a car whose maximum speed is 200, it will seem to you that you are floating in complete silence.

 

[IPunchCholla]

If it will be easier for you, here it is:
If, you think that if the car has a max speed of 145 and the other 200, they will drive 140 with the same effort, I agree with you, and I agree that all cars are the same and what else is needed. It turns out you're right. Just don't get upset.

A historical - you think this shit just dropped right out of the sky
My analysis: it's time to harvest the crust from your eyes
To surge and refine, to rage and define
Ourselves against your line
So sorry, friend, but you must resign
You want to figure it out?
We'll throw down, we'll throw down
You want to figure it out?
Well, throw down your bulldog front
Bold bold mouthtalking
Not so bold now that you've eaten your own lips
Flecked, mouthspecked, you strip the skin right off of the bone
And i would never say you act without precision or care
But, it's all attention to armor, to the armor you wear
So, well, let's knock and check to see if there's somebody home

Bulldog Front
Fugazi

 

[DonR]

If the maximum speed of the car is 145, and you are going 140, the engine will work at the limit, it will heat up more, it will be quite loud in the cabin. If you go 140 in a car whose maximum speed is 200, it will seem to you that you are floating in complete silence.

Where is the engine in a DAC? Do you know how electronics work?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Where is the engine in a DAC. Do you know how electronics work?

As he can’t convince he likes to confuse.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

Where is the engine in a DAC? Do you know how electronics work?

Man, you wrote it, I'm quoting.
"Why do family cars have a peak kmh of 190, others 191, when you aren't allowed to drive faster than 140 anyway?"
I explained to you nicely why that is so, and it took me a couple of posts to do so. Now you ask where is the engine in the DAC. So, are you even aware that is you the first to use that analogy, which I immediately told you was wrong. Well, you haven't forgotten, have you?

 

[Aleksandar RS]

As he can’t convince he likes to confuse.

Please read the discussion from the beginning when you feel the urge to comment on something.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If the maximum speed of the car is 145, and you are going 140, the engine will work at the limit, it will heat up more, it will be quite loud in the cabin. If you go 140 in a car whose maximum speed is 200, it will seem to you that you are floating in complete silence.

I can understand what you were getting on about when you started with this speedometer analogy. I think it was rather poorly chosen one. Firstly because the max listed speed on various speedometers is only loosely correlated with a cars comfort or adeptness at speed. Secondly because with DACs there is no even remotely similar situation. It might fit a little better with power amps, but DACs aren't under strain really and strain isn't what makes one work better than another. There is a little of that with power amps. DACs and the idea of strain or comfort just doesn't fit any situations. Neither with the signal nor sample rate or any such condition.

So bad analogy okay no big deal. I'd hope everyone could just drop this and move on. Perhaps @Aleksandar RS could back up and try stating what he had in mind in more direct terms or some better analogy forgetting about speedometers.

Examples are all over the map on speedometers. I have a 1960's car with 160 mph( 258 kph) speedo. Other brands made the same car with only the outer skin different and they had 120 (192 kph) mph speedos. I know someone with a 4wd diesel pickup who has modded the engine so it can go more than 150 mph (241 kph). While the engine may be comfortable is that truck generally comfortable at 100 mph (161 kph)? No it is still a tall truck with primitive suspension. Plus other than trucks modern suspension design is much better than it used to be so even pedestrian cars are fairly stable and reasonable at higher speeds even if short of what a sports car would be. So bad analogy for DACs and even for cars.

 

[DonR]

Man, you wrote it, I'm quoting.
"Why do family cars have a peak kmh of 190, others 191, when you aren't allowed to drive faster than 140 anyway?"
I explained to you nicely why that is so, and it took me a couple of posts to do so. Now you ask where is the engine in the DAC. So, are you even aware that is you the first to use that analogy, which I immediately told you was wrong. Well, you haven't forgotten, have you?

I did not write that.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

I did not write that.

You're absolutely right, TheBatsEar wrote that. You wrote that I am wrong to say that the analogy is not correct, and we continued to discuss it further. Apologize for that, but the explanation remains.

 

[TheBatsEar]

I did and i regret it deeply now. My apologies.
But to be honest, i lost track anyway, what are we even talking about anymore?

Is it still Aleksandar making 90ies hifi magazine claims and not getting what transparency means?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Please read the discussion from the beginning when you feel the urge to comment on something.

Oh I did. It is grotesque.

Are you able to make your point related to Audio measurements or do you have genuine questions with which we can help you with?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I did and i regret it deeply now. My apologies.
But to be honest, i lost track anyway, what are we even talking about anymore?

Is it still Aleksandar making 90ies hifi magazine claims and not getting what transparency means?
View attachment 260635

… did he get hit by a car speeding? At 100 or was it 160kmh? Or was it mph? A sedan? A pickup? A soccer mom? No wait now I got it … it measured 186.836372 but it felt easily like 200

 

[Aleksandar RS]

I can understand what you were getting on about when you started with this speedometer analogy. I think it was rather poorly chosen one. Firstly because the max listed speed on various speedometers is only loosely correlated with a cars comfort or adeptness at speed. Secondly because with DACs there is no even remotely similar situation. It might fit a little better with power amps, but DACs aren't under strain really and strain isn't what makes one work better than another. There is a little of that with power amps. DACs and the idea of strain or comfort just doesn't fit any situations. Neither with the signal nor sample rate or any such condition.

So bad analogy okay no big deal. I'd hope everyone could just drop this and move on. Perhaps @Aleksandar RS could back up and try stating what he had in mind in more direct terms or some better analogy forgetting about speedometers.

Examples are all over the map on speedometers. I have a 1960's car with 160 mph( 258 kph) speedo. Other brands made the same car with only the outer skin different and they had 120 (192 kph) mph speedos. I know someone with a 4wd diesel pickup who has modded the engine so it can go more than 150 mph (241 kph). While the engine may be comfortable is that truck generally comfortable at 100 mph (161 kph)? No it is still a tall truck with primitive suspension. Plus other than trucks modern suspension design is much better than it used to be so even pedestrian cars are fairly stable and reasonable at higher speeds even if short of what a sports car would be. So bad analogy for DACs and even for cars

I didn't start with that analogy. The whole discussion started when TheBatsEar wrote ""Why do family cars have a peak kmh of 190, others 191, when you aren't allowed to drive faster than 140 anyway?". After that others followed up. I don't know if It's clear that I was trying to explain that the analogy doesn't make sense, and what's the problem.