Don’t attack me. All I am saying is that Shunyata is acting as if cable inductance is a new discovery. I didn’t say it had any effect on audio gear, only that, if it did, it doesn’t require an expensive magic solution.
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Shunyata Factory Tour - and how do THESE claims hold up?
- Thread starter MattHooper
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Not intended as an attack but you seemed to be making an argument for low inductance. Sorry if i misunderstood.
the thought that inductance of a power cable is somehow relevant is ludicrous when you realise that the main thing it connects to is the primary of a transformer.
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That is true, but the inductance in a living room length of power cord is simply too little to worry about. Since the current flows in opposite directions in two conductors that are in close proximity to each other in a power cord, the inductance tends to cancel out.
mhardy6647
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The power cord is only connected to the load when those red pulses happen. (and there usually much smaller and shorter because almost nobody at home is using 100 watts of continuous power.) So how does it make an audible difference when its not even connected 90% of the time. Now add at least 20 feet of unshielded house wiring to that power cord and how can it make any difference. Then you put a voltage reg across it!!!!
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There seems to be a reading problem. My post: “Establish that a low inductance power cable results in better performance and all the amp builders will include one.” I was issuing a challenge to Shunyata or anyone else to show that power cable inductance matters. I also was pointing out that the DTCD baloney is simply showing the inductance of the wire. Does a post have to contain outrage and sarcasm to be understood? If cable inductance was a problem we could just use cheap twisted pair cable and would have no need for Shunyata’s expensive magic.
It certainly helps. This is not a very nuanced crowd.
DonR
Major Contributor
I prefer the term jaded.It certainly helps. This is not a very nuanced crowd.
I think your problem is you started with the sentence:
Which, while technically correct, is practically irrelevant becuase of the tiny values involved. However, right at the start it sets in the mind of your reader that you are making a case for low inductance cables. Perhaps it wouldn't if we didn't get so many people here trying to do just that - but we do, so it does.
There's no need to decipher anything, just substract two recordings of two different cables from each other, what you are left with is the difference.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Why would a DC jump measurement be an important factor ?
No mains cable ever sees a 'DC jump'.
At best it has a 60Hz (flattened) sinewave on its input and 1ms rise time would already be 'fast enough'.
They showed the time it takes for a generic power cord to reach their maximum current takes 50μs.
1ms is 20x slower than that. So regardless if a super cable would be 'faster' that doesn't matter.
Even when we consider that the peaks going through the mains cable are repetitive every 8.3ms and conduct shorter than that we see that even the highest frequencies that actually have to pass through a mains cord will be below 1kHz (250μs rise time needed) so 'speed' is never an issue.
(above spectrum of 50Hz mains current draw from a full wave rectifier)
The other thing they have shown is that the DC resistance is 3x lower than a generic power cord. The Venum3 thus has a lower DC resistance.
So just use a thicker gauge 'generic' cable and the resistance is the same as the Venum3.
Speed is already good enough and you thus in practice get the exact same performance as an expensive Shunyata cable when used with 60Hz mains.
200A peaks (60Hz) means that at 115VAC 16kW is drawn in say.... 1ms (the time the mains cable needs to conduct).
The other 7.3ms no current is drawn. This means 2kW continuous is basically being drawn at that moment.
When playing music (Crest factor) you would be powering the equivalent of a 10kW stereo amplifier.
Would you need that low a cable resistance to power your 2x 50W or even 2x500W stereo amp ? or your 10W DAC for that matter ?
So their research has shown that a regular mains cable is already MORE than 'fast enough' and that the only important factor is resistance which is solved with just a thicker gauge.
Thanks to the Shunyata article we now know that a generic mains cable is all you really need for audio equipment and more than that is over-kill and does not improve anything.
No mains cable ever sees a 'DC jump'.
At best it has a 60Hz (flattened) sinewave on its input and 1ms rise time would already be 'fast enough'.
They showed the time it takes for a generic power cord to reach their maximum current takes 50μs.
1ms is 20x slower than that. So regardless if a super cable would be 'faster' that doesn't matter.
Even when we consider that the peaks going through the mains cable are repetitive every 8.3ms and conduct shorter than that we see that even the highest frequencies that actually have to pass through a mains cord will be below 1kHz (250μs rise time needed) so 'speed' is never an issue.
(above spectrum of 50Hz mains current draw from a full wave rectifier)
The other thing they have shown is that the DC resistance is 3x lower than a generic power cord. The Venum3 thus has a lower DC resistance.
So just use a thicker gauge 'generic' cable and the resistance is the same as the Venum3.
Speed is already good enough and you thus in practice get the exact same performance as an expensive Shunyata cable when used with 60Hz mains.
200A peaks (60Hz) means that at 115VAC 16kW is drawn in say.... 1ms (the time the mains cable needs to conduct).
The other 7.3ms no current is drawn. This means 2kW continuous is basically being drawn at that moment.
When playing music (Crest factor) you would be powering the equivalent of a 10kW stereo amplifier.
Would you need that low a cable resistance to power your 2x 50W or even 2x500W stereo amp ? or your 10W DAC for that matter ?
So their research has shown that a regular mains cable is already MORE than 'fast enough' and that the only important factor is resistance which is solved with just a thicker gauge.
Thanks to the Shunyata article we now know that a generic mains cable is all you really need for audio equipment and more than that is over-kill and does not improve anything.
Yes, I watched both. The 10 dB drop of course could be anything. As you saw, it is some random measurements and who knows what is what. As you know, I have not measured even a fraction of that in all the power tweaks I have tested. As an aside, I worry about marble floors and B&W speakers he has in the mastering room. I suspect he needs much more dire work there than any power or cable tweak.
I should mention that I too got a tour of Shunyata and met with founder, Caelin. He was a generous host and a big supporter of me in digging into objective facts. He tries to practice the same, even buying an Audio Precision APx555 and wanting to do blind tests at some point. So as companies and founders of cable companies go, he is closest to sanity than any of them. That said, a member reached out to them asking for some product to test and his marketing guy (?) Grant wrote back saying in essence that I am the enemy of what they do so no interest in loaning the gear to me.
D
Deleted member 35357
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They are in the business of making money for a living.Yes, I watched both. The 10 dB drop of course could be anything. As you saw, it is some random measurements and who knows what is what. As you know, I have not measured even a fraction of that in all the power tweaks I have tested. As an aside, I worry about marble floors and B&W speakers he has in the mastering room. I suspect he needs much more dire work there than any power or cable tweak.
I should mention that I too got a tour of Shunyata and met with founder, Caelin. He was a generous host and a big supporter of me in digging into objective facts. He tries to practice the same, even buying an Audio Precision APx555 and wanting to do blind tests at some point. So as companies and founders of cable companies go, he is closest to sanity than any of them. That said, a member reached out to them asking for some product to test and his marketing guy (?) Grant wrote back saying in essence that I am the enemy of what they do so no interest in loaning the gear to me.
Giving you time might hurt their sales & income and in turn their living a comfortable life selling nonsense. Or rather the image of being "better" to their delusional customers.
They sell fancy looking cables, if someone doesn't like their peripherals from a performance standpoint it's understandable but there are lots of people who have excessive cash wanting that something extra premium to throw their money at to gain that extra edge compared to their peers. It's bragging rights!
Look how much excess money I have thrown out on these fancy cables! They say they are the best!
They are buying a image of having something "luxurious" and something better than the cheap stuff that's available.
It's luxurious designer bags, clothes & trinkets as comparison.
You just buy expensive stuff for it being expensive. It gives lots of people jobs. And people with excess wealth a reason to spend more than they need.
Wealth redistribution.
Grant knows which side of his bread is buttered.Yes, I watched both. The 10 dB drop of course could be anything. As you saw, it is some random measurements and who knows what is what. As you know, I have not measured even a fraction of that in all the power tweaks I have tested. As an aside, I worry about marble floors and B&W speakers he has in the mastering room. I suspect he needs much more dire work there than any power or cable tweak.
I should mention that I too got a tour of Shunyata and met with founder, Caelin. He was a generous host and a big supporter of me in digging into objective facts. He tries to practice the same, even buying an Audio Precision APx555 and wanting to do blind tests at some point. So as companies and founders of cable companies go, he is closest to sanity than any of them. That said, a member reached out to them asking for some product to test and his marketing guy (?) Grant wrote back saying in essence that I am the enemy of what they do so no interest in loaning the gear to me.
Keith
Research into the extraction of cash through ignorance and gross gullibility. it’s going pretty well.
Keith
Keith
mhardy6647
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It certainly helps. This is not a very nuanced crowd.
I prefer the term jaded.
Hmmm... taken together, those two posts sound like a working definition of the term engineer...
Marky ducks and runs for cover.
Why worry about the inductance in a power cable when it will often be connected to a 50/60Hz power xfmr with Henries of primary inductance? As I mentioned in an earlier post, power cord inductance is low because two conductors are in very close proximity to each other with AC currents flowing in opposite directions in the two conductors. Cancellation occurs. It's simply too tiny a problem to piddle nervous little puddles over.
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