Shunyata Factory Tour - and how do THESE claims hold up?

[posvibes]

A naive question , very naive I admit, but would a less "noisy" AC cable boil a kettle measurably quicker than a noisy cable?

 

[Blumlein 88]

A naive question , very naive I admit, but would a less "noisy" AC cable boil a kettle measurably quicker than a noisy cable?

Depends upon whether the noise was generated by the cable or being picked up from another source. Also like so small a difference unless you can count the molecules precisely it is of no significance in boiling a kettle. Russel's teapot should boil without a cable at all.

 

[tonycollinet]

A naive question , very naive I admit, but would a less "noisy" AC cable boil a kettle measurably quicker than a noisy cable?

No, it won't. Cables are not "noisy" in any case.

 

[Cbdb2]

Well next time I need to draw 200 amps in a few usecs from a residential 15 amp circuit I will buy there cables. Is that even possible?
When I need .5 amps for msecs to charge caps before a V reg I will use what came with the device. There are enough great sounding audio devices that use a wall wart to debunk this stupidity.

I new this was going to be Bs when I saw this "Michael Fremer, Stereophile, USA"

 

[kongwee]

Thanks JayGilb,

That was my thinking (such as it is) as well.

Even if we take the measurements at face value, I'm not sure it suggests the cables are likely to make any sonic differences in most systems. This still isn't someone identifying cable differences using music. I wonder what a music file, through that system, would show with and without, nulled for differences.

Anyone else care to comment?

There is difference using nulled test. It is very hard to do. Someone has post a video about some difference in cables through loudspeaker. The post run a couple of time you get at least three set to play. I took the first two reference to null. No way a perfect cancellation. There is difference even they are the same setup. Pulling the test cable, the difference is more. The null on reference tracks sound hollow, while test cable sound a lot more body. It is a day and night difference.

Actually you can see difference on speaker output just using a sine output. Not every cycle are not the same. That is you are using DAW to see the actual waveform.

 

[dorakeg]

He folks,

There is a new video (Absolute Sound) of a Shunyata factory tour:

That video itself may not interest too many here, but in discussing this on another forum I was pointing out that, as far as I know, Shunyata has not
provided any evidence of their product measurably/audibly improving an actual audio signal. As Amir always points out in his reviews, that is of course
what we actually care about.

Here are a couple of responses that purport to provide such evidence:

DTCD® Technology - Shunyata Research

DTCD® Technology The Shunyata Research DTCD® Analyzer is the first and only power analyzer designed specifically to measure the differences between AC power cables, wires and connections. We interrupt our regularly scheduled analog programming for this important message: Shunyata Research’s...

shunyata.com

Here is an "unpaid" video testimonial from someone in a recording studio.

I'm not concerned with the standard "we all heard a difference" stuff, but he does make some claims using measurements at around: 3:17 in to the video.

He describes measuring the the noise floor of the output of a loop - DAC to mastering console to the ADC: - 108 dB(z)
With the Shunyata cabling they measured: - 118 dB(z)

So drop of 10dB noise floor "across all frequencies." Inner crosstalk was reduced by -3dB. Harmonic distortion was also reduced by a small percentage.

He then says some would argue that the noise floor was already below human perception. But as they raise volume levels, add processors etc, this can increase the residual noise floor 20dB or more, well in to the audible noise range:


Now, audiophiles are generally not putting their signal through chains of processors and mastering consoles. So this still seems to me of dubious benefit in the average system. Also: the gentleman in the video doesn't IIRC tell us what exactly he measured at the output of that chain, and how he measured it (e.g. what measuring device).

However, I'm no EE so what do you more knowledgeable folk have to say about these particular claims?

I just saw this is thread and the dtcd method.

It's really interesting. I am not sure how accurate is their measurement or if it affects sound but the concept is similar to that of a capacitor. I read that not all capacitors are the same, i.e. they have different charging/discharging rates.. I can't find any information on this though.

So in this case, cables may behave the same (similar to a pipe). But since electricity are basically electrical fields, I am not sure if this effect is big enough. I am thinking amps with smaller capacitor banks may be more susceptible to this.

Btw, I think this applies to every cable and even circuit board traces since they are all basically wires. How I wish I have the time and money to investigate and test this out...haha

 

[JSmith]

No, it won't. Cables are not "noisy" in any case.

Tony I'm fairly sure @posvibes was joking, referring to long past forum battles about power chords, colloquially referred to as "kettles cables". One would often ask a believer if their water would boil faster or if the water would be improved somehow leading to a better tasting tea/coffee as a bit of a stir.


JSmith

 

[DonR]

I just saw this is thread and the dtcd method.

It's really interesting. I am not sure how accurate is their measurement or if it affects sound but the concept is similar to that of a capacitor. I read that not all capacitors are the same, i.e. they have different charging/discharging rates.. I can't find any information on this though.

So in this case, cables may behave the same (similar to a pipe). But since electricity are basically electrical fields, I am not sure if this effect is big enough. I am thinking amps with smaller capacitor banks may be more susceptible to this.

Btw, I think this applies to every cable and even circuit board traces since they are all basically wires. How I wish I have the time and money to investigate and test this out...haha

Capacitors vary in their rates of charge/discharge only if there is a significant difference in ESR. For most properly working capacitors, the differences can be discounted as negligible.

 

[Blumlein 88]

There is difference using nulled test. It is very hard to do. Someone has post a video about some difference in cables through loudspeaker. The post run a couple of time you get at least three set to play. I took the first two reference to null. No way a perfect cancellation. There is difference even they are the same setup. Pulling the test cable, the difference is more. The null on reference tracks sound hollow, while test cable sound a lot more body. It is a day and night difference.

Actually you can see difference on speaker output just using a sine output. Not every cycle are not the same. That is you are using DAW to see the actual waveform.

You used the compressed sound from a video. Not good. Use pkanes Deltawave and do some null tests on cables. None of what you are supposing is true. Speaker cables can vary a bit from impedance effects interacting with the speaker, but nothing mysterious about it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I just saw this is thread and the dtcd method.

It's really interesting. I am not sure how accurate is their measurement or if it affects sound but the concept is similar to that of a capacitor. I read that not all capacitors are the same, i.e. they have different charging/discharging rates.. I can't find any information on this though.

So in this case, cables may behave the same (similar to a pipe). But since electricity are basically electrical fields, I am not sure if this effect is big enough. I am thinking amps with smaller capacitor banks may be more susceptible to this.

Btw, I think this applies to every cable and even circuit board traces since they are all basically wires. How I wish I have the time and money to investigate and test this out...haha

They are misleading you with a test of no relevance. Man this company is a good example of Brandolini's law.

 

[JSmith]

nulled test

GR Research B24 AC Cord Review

This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the GR Research B24 AC cable. I purchased it from the company direct. It costs US $349 in the 4 foot section I purchased. As the British saying goes, the B24 "looks the part" with the thick cabling and such. But fails in actual construction...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

 

[JaMaSt]

A whiles ago I got quite interested in irrationality and was surprised but not shocked that my brain was making decisions of its own accord without showing much deference to my decision making capability. We've had words about this often and I threatened taking legal action such as including a restraining order without success as he always seems to be a step or two ahead of me!

Our Brains Make Up Our Minds Before We Know It

Brain activity can foretell some choices before subjects are conscious of them.

www.psychologytoday.com

Another take on the issue that you might find interesting.

Neural precursors of decisions that matter—an ERP study of deliberate and arbitrary choice

The readiness potential—a long-established neural precursor of voluntary action claimed to precede the onset of the conscious decision to move—is absent, or at least significantly reduced, for deliberate decisions.

elifesciences.org

Abstract
The readiness potential (RP)—a key ERP correlate of upcoming action—is known to precede subjects' reports of their decision to move. Some view this as evidence against a causal role for consciousness in human decision-making and thus against free-will. But previous work focused on arbitrary decisions—purposeless, unreasoned, and without consequences. It remains unknown to what degree the RP generalizes to deliberate, more ecological decisions. We directly compared deliberate and arbitrary decision-making during a $1000-donation task to non-profit organizations. While we found the expected RPs for arbitrary decisions, they were strikingly absent for deliberate ones. Our results and drift-diffusion model are congruent with the RP representing accumulation of noisy, random fluctuations that drive arbitrary—but not deliberate—decisions. They further point to different neural mechanisms underlying deliberate and arbitrary decisions, challenging the generalizability of studies that argue for no causal role for consciousness in decision-making to real-life decisions.

 

[JaMaSt]

Even Einstein didn't believe in quantum mechanics.

This is not correct.

Einstein and Schrodinger (and de Broglie and Bohm and many others) disputed some ontological/epistemological interpretations of certain aspects of quantum mechanics made by others. Many commonly (and erroneously) believe that Schrodinger thought that the cat was both "dead" and "alive" at the same time. The experiment was put forth by Schrodinger to, in fact, show the ludicrousness of some interpretations. Einstein is one of the seminal founders of quantum mechanics. To say that he didn't "believe" in it, and to then try and use this as an example about keeping an "open mind" regarding science, is nonsense.

 

[kemmler3D]

The experience from someone who has drink it everyday will be different from someone who tried it for the very first time and so on.....

Well, sure, but that is not because of which glass it is in.

 

[kemmler3D]

random fluctuations that drive arbitrary—but not deliberate—decisions.

Interesting, this suggests when we pick at random, we really do pick at random...

 

[Chrispy]

Overall might depend how far I could get in the tour without involuntary bowel movements making my opinion clear....

 

[tonycollinet]

Tony I'm fairly sure @posvibes was joking, referring to long past forum battles about power chords, colloquially referred to as "kettles cables". One would often ask a believer if their water would boil faster or if the water would be improved somehow leading to a better tasting tea/coffee as a bit of a stir.


JSmith

Doh - and it should have been obvious. But Poe's law STILL applies.

 

[tonycollinet]

Capacitors vary in their rates of charge/discharge only if there is a significant difference in ESR. For most properly working capacitors, the differences can be discounted as negligible.

Or in their capacitance. Electrolytics typically have 20% tolerance on capacitance value.

 

[rwortman]

Current lags applied voltage in a power cable because of inductance. This is not new science. If our amps need low inductance power cables, they don’t cost a fortune to build and you don’t need a proprietary new test rig to measure them. Establish that a low inductance power cable results in better performance and all the amp builders will include one.

 

[tonycollinet]

Current lags applied voltage in a power cable because of inductance. This is not new science. If our amps need low inductance power cables, they don’t cost a fortune to build and you don’t need a proprietary new test rig to measure them. Establish that a low inductance power cable results in better performance and all the amp builders will include one.

Do you know how much inductance there is in a power cable? Do you know how small the lag would be at 50/60 Hz with that inductance? How do you thing that phase lag is going to impact the output of a power supply in an amp - never mind about the audio signal from it?