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Shunyata Factory Tour - and how do THESE claims hold up?

Palladium

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Why worry about the inductance in a power cable when it will often be connected to a 50/60Hz power xfmr with Henries of primary inductance? As I mentioned in an earlier post, power cord inductance is low because two conductors are in very close proximity to each other with AC currents flowing in opposite directions in the two conductors. Cancellation occurs. It's simply too tiny a problem to piddle nervous little puddles over.

Also lol at using linear power supplies in a consumer device in 2022.
 

egellings

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Also lol at using linear power supplies in a consumer device in 2022.
Linear supplies work fine for low power applications like preamps, which require a small amount of low noise power. The supplies are uncomplicated compared to a switch mode one with just a transformer, a coupla diodes & a 'lytic or two, with maybe a 3-pin regulator. When high regulated power is required, then the complexity of switch mode makes sense. So each has its applications.
 
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sq225917

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Until they start making smps that last 20+ years and can be fixed in minutes for pennies, I think I'll stick with my linear supplies.
 

gfinlays

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From Shunyata's DTCD page:

It certainly does. But golly gee, are they saying that a standard 120V power cord is only providing 105V to your amplifier? Wouldn't that be something people would have noticed long before now? Hang on, look at the 'Baseline' curve on the first graph and it turns out they're feeding these cables with 275A pulses... Do you have a heavy industrial electrical installation in your home, or do you have standard 120V/20A outlets? I'm guessing the latter.

So yes, 'objective difference', but only in a situation that's completely irrelevant to domestic hifi.

The rest of the page seems dedicated to demonstrating that (surprise!) larger cables can carry more current, again testing at current levels that far exceed those available for a domestic outlet.
So they used welder cable sized conductors in their mains lead. And the benefit to an audio amplifier by using massively oversized cables is....? Zip, zero, nada. The resistance of the power supply fuse is orders of magnitude greater than the cable.
 

MaxBuck

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It would be interesting to know whether this company's products aimed at the medical instrumentation market in fact produce the improved patient monitoring performance that their online marketing materials claim. If so, I can see the value of the company's existence.
 

Palladium

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Why worry about the inductance in a power cable when it will often be connected to a 50/60Hz power xfmr with Henries of primary inductance? As I mentioned in an earlier post, power cord inductance is low because two conductors are in very close proximity to each other with AC currents flowing in opposite directions in the two conductors. Cancellation occurs. It's simply too tiny a problem to piddle nervous little puddles over.

Audiophile GDP is made from creating solutions to pointless and irrelevant problems.
 

Travis

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Sorry if this had been covered in here, just became aware of this from the current fraud thread.

I realize what the DTCD Shunyata Test shows as a “difference” is meaningless, and a smart engineer or physicist, left to his or her own devices (see what I did there) could probably come up with an input that would measure differently in output between their product and a standard, but I am surprised they came up with anything that showed a difference capable of being measured (if it really did, the graphs are printouts from excel spreadsheets). So, has anyone figured out what their proprietary test is measuring? How they do it? I figure they have come up with something akin to white noise, or pink noise, or even “garbage in” which works “better” or faster for their cable than a std. black cable. Is their testing capable of being reversed engineered to show for example how they get different curves on 3 std cables with different gauges?

I’m surprised there is any measurable difference at all for speed, current, etc. But here’s my expertise on this. My Father was an engineer at Ampex, associated with instrumentation (telemetry) on things like Navy and Air Force ICBMs, rocket and moon launches and recording that data, and playing it back and converting it to a useful format, with some pro audio recording and duplication mixed in. We built some amplifiers and other things together when I was a kid. When I wanted to use a heavy duty AC cord like on one of their commercial pieces of equipment, he would say, “not necessary, won’t make a difference.” My response, being 8 or so, “why not” or “how come.” He would say, pull out the fuse we put in that circuit, and look at that wire that runs on the inside, all of the current has to run through that tiny wire, putting car battery cables to an AC plug, or anything else than what code requires is going to make a dimes worth of difference.”

So since 1968, any piece of equipment with a fuse doesn’t need anything more than zip cord in my mind and that’s the furthest I will ever go with it.
 

rwortman

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It’s the current flow lagging the voltage due to cable inductance. It’s not new nor particularly important. They can’t call it what it is because making a low inductance power cable is cheap, you just twist the wires together.
 

Travis

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From their website 3 std cords 14, 16 and 18.

So there is nothing “proprietary” about their test? They are just testing current vs. time and these are well know attributes of different gauge stranded wire? So in my simple mind, this is showing why you want 4 gauge jumper cables? more current?

Well I have got to hand it to them, they have done a wonderful job, graphically, of showing how their cables are different, they pass more current faster than a standard cable. And if you want super fast and more current you can go to their Black Mamba (Kill Bill cable), so it justifies the price.

So what’s the equivalent car/engine analogy that most audio geeks can understand, something that is meaningless to engine performance but capable of being measured? Or has someone used a good analogy? I’m on page 2 of thread and working forward to get caught up.

It’s no wonder they keep selling their Product, annd keep anbout 20 employees busy, and that they are based in Seattle area, or Nordost is in MA. Abundant supply of tech/EE people with a lot of disposable income that has a little basis in measurements.

In one of the graphs they compare “baseline” in gray, and their Venom IIRC in red and a std black cable in blue. The baseline is significantly “faster” With significantly more current than even the venom. What the heck is baseline. At the wall outlet? Why is it faster, and passes more current? It’s solid wire Nomex?

This just may be way beyond me, but I’m asking in the hopes of showing that their graph, even though meaningless to people who know, is effective to lay people (and repeated by Fremer), and that the real way to counter that is by a common sense analogy with a nice looking graph (even if it’s ABX or blind listening results.
 

Travis

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Thinking about the impact of these cables on sound is like thinking about the impact of bumper stickers on the top speed of a car. Yes - technically the bumper stickers have a theoretical impact on aerodynamics... which does impact speed. But they want to assert that the impact of bumper stickers is comparable to the impact of opening the doors and windows while driving, and sell you a $10,000 bumper sticker removal tool.
I like the direction, and to pick up on it (hope you don’t mind) the DMV or dealer says you can have the standard plate/plate holder (power cord) or you can have the optional “aerodynamic” front plate/plate holder for $1,500 (after market high dollar cable). “The drag is at least 75% less as shown in NASA AMES wind tunnel tests.” (Objective measurement showing a benefit). There is of course no mention as to how this impacts 0 to 60, top speed, gas mileage or any other useful measure (sound quality).
 

Travis

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Hang on, look at the 'Baseline' curve on the first graph and it turns out they're feeding these cables with 275A pulses... Do you have a heavy industrial electrical installation in your home, or do you have standard 120V/20A outlets? I'm guessing the latter
Thank you, that answers a million questions. Garbage in, garbage out.
 

HairyEars

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Another take on the issue that you might find interesting.


Abstract
The readiness potential (RP)—a key ERP correlate of upcoming action—is known to precede subjects' reports of their decision to move. Some view this as evidence against a causal role for consciousness in human decision-making and thus against free-will. But previous work focused on arbitrary decisions—purposeless, unreasoned, and without consequences. It remains unknown to what degree the RP generalizes to deliberate, more ecological decisions. We directly compared deliberate and arbitrary decision-making during a $1000-donation task to non-profit organizations. While we found the expected RPs for arbitrary decisions, they were strikingly absent for deliberate ones. Our results and drift-diffusion model are congruent with the RP representing accumulation of noisy, random fluctuations that drive arbitrary—but not deliberate—decisions. They further point to different neural mechanisms underlying deliberate and arbitrary decisions, challenging the generalizability of studies that argue for no causal role for consciousness in decision-making to real-life decisions.

I find the attempt to distinguish between
Another take on the issue that you might find interesting.


Abstract
The readiness potential (RP)—a key ERP correlate of upcoming action—is known to precede subjects' reports of their decision to move. Some view this as evidence against a causal role for consciousness in human decision-making and thus against free-will. But previous work focused on arbitrary decisions—purposeless, unreasoned, and without consequences. It remains unknown to what degree the RP generalizes to deliberate, more ecological decisions. We directly compared deliberate and arbitrary decision-making during a $1000-donation task to non-profit organizations. While we found the expected RPs for arbitrary decisions, they were strikingly absent for deliberate ones. Our results and drift-diffusion model are congruent with the RP representing accumulation of noisy, random fluctuations that drive arbitrary—but not deliberate—decisions. They further point to different neural mechanisms underlying deliberate and arbitrary decisions, challenging the generalizability of studies that argue for no causal role for consciousness
cision-making to real-life decisions.

The pompous language alone points out to pseudo-science. And when I realized they attempted to disconnect various levels of our thinking processes--e.g., parts of our brains--hailing our consciousness as the sole agent of free-will, I couldn't help but conclude it was another junk paper our laughable institutions regularly churn out.
 

charleski

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Thank you, that answers a million questions. Garbage in, garbage out.
It’s a standard trick: skew the testing conditions so radically that they end up favouring your product. They’re doing the same thing when they boast about how their power conditioners make a difference in hospitals. A radiology department with x-ray and MRI machines will dump huge amounts of noise on the local power lines feeding electrophysiology devices which need to be sensitive to microvolt signals. Strangely enough, when I listen to music at home I don’t have a CT scanner in the next room.
 

gfinlays

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It’s a standard trick: skew the testing conditions so radically that they end up favouring your product. They’re doing the same thing when they boast about how their power conditioners make a difference in hospitals. A radiology department with x-ray and MRI machines will dump huge amounts of noise on the local power lines feeding electrophysiology devices which need to be sensitive to microvolt signals. Strangely enough, when I listen to music at home I don’t have a CT scanner in the next room.
An MRI uses about 20 kWh per scan, apparently, CT quite a bit lower, but nonetheless, power consumption is on an industrial scale, with no doubt, similar effects on mains noise.


As you say, none of us has an MRI or CT scanner next door to our listening room.
 

antcollinet

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An MRI uses about 20 kWh per scan, apparently, CT quite a bit lower, but nonetheless, power consumption is on an industrial scale, with no doubt, similar effects on mains noise.


As you say, none of us has an MRI or CT scanner next door to our listening room.
Average MRI scan time shown as 51 minutes with average energy consupmtion of 23.6kWh, so average power input is around 28kW. Peak power over 100kW.


Call me naive, but I'm guessing the Scanners are on a different circuit from the Dr's Office HiFi. :cool:
 

egellings

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It’s the current flow lagging the voltage due to cable inductance. It’s not new nor particularly important. They can’t call it what it is because making a low inductance power cable is cheap, you just twist the wires together.
At a lousy 50 60 60Hz the little bit of inductance in a living room length of power cord is simply too little to worry about. What about the Henries of inductance in a power transformer primary winding (assuming a non switch-mode supply), which is in series with the cord & AC source? Worrying about L in a power cord is just ludicrous in that setting. Then, there's all the house wiring & so on. It's a nothingburger.
 

Speedskater

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With the' DTCD' Shunyata Test, it's a series circuit from that big power transformer down the street to the input of your power amplifier. Maybe 200 to over 500 feet total length. Measuring just 6 feet of the series circuit is rather meaningless. So even if that 6 foot length is theoretically perfect, the total circuit response remains the same. But good high frequency response in an AC cord or circuit is the opposite of what a filter does.
 

egellings

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With the' DTCD' Shunyata Test, it's a series circuit from that big power transformer down the street to the input of your power amplifier. Maybe 200 to over 500 feet total length. Measuring just 6 feet of the series circuit is rather meaningless. So even if that 6 foot length is theoretically perfect, the total circuit response remains the same. But good high frequency response in an AC cord or circuit is the opposite of what a filter does.
Agree.
 
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