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Review and Measurements of Hypex NC400 DIY Amp

restorer-john

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Thanks and of course I do.

It's likely a live heatsink Amir. (I know you know that, but just for good measure).

Put your thermocouple on the tops of the secondary +/- rail caps. The small ones next to the rectifiers on the secondary side?

The switching (primary side) heatsink will get warm, and the rectifiers' heatsink (secondary) will get warm, but I lay money on those small secondary filter caps getting hot themselves.
 

Armand

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There has been some debate about average music load VS continuous load. I have used this piece of music as the worst-case scenario in my testing (the track name fits very well too :) ).
My apocalypse from Metallica has an impressing -5,9dBFS throughout the track. A pure continuous sine wave is -3dBFS so this entire track is an impressive only -2.9dB from a pure sine wave. This is of course ridiculous, and I would like to know if someone knows any tracks from "normal" popular music with worse compression.

Let's say you buy a 400W amplifier and you want to play this track on repeat all night at full power just under clipping. How many watts RMS is that? The answer is 205W continuous. Even with this ridiculous track the average power is just half of rated power.
Therefore (in my opinion) it is a waste of money to design the amplifiers power supply capability and heat transfer capability of both the power supply and the output amplifier modules to be able to handle the full 400W continuous signal when only 200W is enough for 99.99% of all consumers. If the 400W amplifier can play “My apocalypse” all night at full power (200W RMS) without overheat it is really good enough.
1546430246084.png
 

DonH56

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It has never been about crest factors and peak-to-average ratios in music (BTW the AES-accepted number is 17 dB, a power factor of 50, IIRC). It is about having a standard for specifying and comparing amplifiers. And the standard is full power for 5 minutes, not "all night", so I'd bet most amplifiers meeting the standard would reach thermal shutdown long before the night is over.

Yes, meeting the standard at high power levels requires significant design considerations in the power supply, circuit design, and thermal management. If you don't feel you need that, why not just buy an amplifier suiting your needs? I don't really understand the angst and rage against the standard. It would be better spent defining a new standard, or addition to it, and lobbying the FTC to change or at least enhance the standard. Unfortunately that has been tried many times over many years and there doesn't seem to be a good revision yet. And somehow I doubt ASR will sway the committee, though we do have a lot of talent represented, the manufacturers seem to be driving the standard (or rather lack of change to the standard, except to reduce the preconditioning requirement).

I'd advocate for an additional burst test using longer and more complex tones to assess "dynamic headroom" but somebody is always going to argue it is too stringent or too lax. Just doing the current burst test would be interesting; it would (should) catch those amplifiers that misbehave when overdriven. An amp that recovers cleanly and quickly from clipping is an important criteria to me (and perhaps nobody else).

All IMO! - Don
 

6speed

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I regularly listen to tracks like this, and my power requirements according to this test are only 40W with current 2-way passive speakers (but separate powered sub). Once I finish my new active speakers with drivers that are 4dB more sensitive to begin with, the power per channel will go down even further. The target market for Hypex is reproducing Metallica in a residential setting, not Metallica producing music in an arena.

BTW someone got their hands on the Death Magnetic recordings at some point prior to the final master and released their own version under the pseudonym Deceifer, and the mix sounds the same but with slightly higher dynamic range. I wish someone would let him remaster everything else in my catalog.
 

6speed

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somehow I doubt ASR will sway the committee

You don't have to sway the FTC, just this forum. The idea is to standardize Amir's testing process.
 
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If I had to listen to Metallica all night I'd shoot myself, so it wouldn't be an issue in any case. :)

I think it would be illustrative for many users to monitor one of their power amplifier outputs with an oscilloscope during a normal listening session and then do a little arithmetic on what you see.
I set my 'scope on 5V/div (40VP-P window displayed) and rarely see musical peaks exceeding that window during enjoyable listening sessions. My primary speakers are average sensitivity of about 88db/1watt/1meter.

That 40VP-P window corresponds to amplifier with a nomimal 25-WPC/8-ohm rating. :)
Assuming the amplifier is capable of supplying the necessary current requirements, an amp with very low power rating such as that would be operating nominally probably 90% of the time.

Dave.
 

Burning Sounds

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There has been some debate about average music load VS continuous load. I have used this piece of music as the worst-case scenario in my testing (the track name fits very well too :) ).
My apocalypse from Metallica has an impressing -5,9dBFS throughout the track. A pure continuous sine wave is -3dBFS so this entire track is an impressive only -2.9dB from a pure sine wave. This is of course ridiculous, and I would like to know if someone knows any tracks from "normal" popular music with worse compression.

Try Iggy Pop's 1997 remastering of Raw Power - DR of 1 if I remember correctly. :eek: Then again perhaps Raw Power is not normal music!
 

garbulky

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Whatever the standard it has to be clearly indicated that the FTC test was not done. I personally don't think we need to invent a standard. But if ASR did perhaps a burst power test of 30 seconds or 1 minutes?
 

Armand

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6speed; There is a Playstation3 game called "Guitar Hero" that has another version of the Death Magnetic album. Here is a youtube clip that demonstrates the difference.

Don:
I don’t have any "rage" against the standard. My intention is only to discuss alternative test methods that are more true to real world conditions we could use to compare amplifiers on this forum.
Perhaps how loud the amp can play My Apocalypse (or equivalent) for 30 minutes without overheating could be a test? The problem with this test is that it takes a lot of time/iterations to find the answer. Also, what is overheating? 100 degrees? 120 degrees? Or shutdown? I don’t’ have the answer.
I agree that clipping conditions and recovery is interesting.

And don't get me wrong, I do like overengineered amplifiers that can take full load for hours. But for many users like 6speed, 25W is really enough and it would be nice to have some kind of test that showed how much power an amp can deliver long term without problems.
 

6speed

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How about running an initial power sweep, identifying the upper knee in the distortion curve (225W in this case), then running the amp at this power level graphing temperature rise until the chassis temperature reaches x degrees or the power supply caps reach y degrees? @restorer-john might have suggestions for safe values that would ensure a long lifespan. If both probes hit asymptotes below our thresholds, then the amp is over-engineered for continuous power. If the test lasts 5 minutes, then the amp is "good enough" for most people.

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DonH56

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The safe temperature values depend upon the components used; for example, you can get capacitors in 65, 85, 105, 125, and 140 degC versions (among others). There are some defined temperature qualification ranges we could utilize: 0 - 70 degC for consumer, -40 to 85 degC for industrial, and -55 to 125 degC for military spec components. There are variations on each theme, natch, and these are component, not external case ratings. If your amplifier's case is at 70 degC (about 160 degF, too hot to touch) then internal components are probably 40 degC or so warmer (110 degC), too hot for comfort.

I have noticed that during recent Stereophile testing there have been several amplifiers that shut down during preconditioning and/or would not reach their full power ratings at low impedance without protection circuitry being engaged. (I have about six months of back issues and am slowly catching up whilst I have some time off.)

Rather than music, how about using pink or other colored noise or some other signal with a defined crest factor for power tests? That has been proposed before but I think shot down because it was too stringent (too hard on amplifiers). Foggy memory again back to the 1970/1980 decades when power wars were on-going and various standards bodies were trying to develop something reasonable. These days, we could create all sorts of fancy test signals. How about a multitone test with 10 or more tones across the 20 - 20 kHz bandwidth? That could provide a good crest factor for testing. Or a number of tones weighted to follow the Fletcher-Munson loudness curve (but at what level)? For me the problem is more what test conditions are reasonable and realistic than our ability to create and run them.

What I have done in the primordial past back when I worked "in the biz" and had audio test equipment and all the gear to play with:
  1. Standard frequency response at 1 W into resistive dummy load;
  2. SINAD (THD+N) sweeps to full power (typically low duty cycle);
  3. IMD sweeps or spot checks (e.g. 100 Hz, 1 kHz, 10 kHz);
  4. A few square-wave signals;
  5. Full-power test (FTC, including pre-conditioning);
  6. IHF burst test;
  7. Overload test -- pulsed signal at 3 dB over max output to assess clipping and recovery behavior; and,
  8. Pink noise at -20 dB and -10 dB (latter would usually cause some clipping).
Pretty sure my original list had ten things on it but I don't have the list anymore (at least anywhere I would be able to find it). I did run the slew/TIM test that was (I think) a 100 Hz square wave with a 10 kHz sine wave riding on it, or something like that, and some other burst tests like five full-power cycles at some frequency so I could see how quickly the amplifier recovered. At lower power (usually) it was interesting to see what happend with such a test signal when driving speakers. I did make up some speaker dummy loads with a couple of resonators to add a peak and valley at LF (100 Hz) and HF (10 kHz). Not a Power Cube, just a home-brew reactance network I added to my dummy loads that emulated some of the gnarlier speaker impedance plots I measured at the time. And I have said before my dummy loads were big gold-finned power resistors stuck in gallon paint cans filled with transformer oil. I had 4- and 8-ohm and could create other values by combining those.

Steady-state responses were (and are) typically well-defined and well-measured by manufacturers so, while I measured those when repairing or checking amplifiers, I got caught up in transient time-domain response of amplifiers to various "burst" conditions in my long-ago search for what differentiated amplifiers. Sometimes it was very revealing, sometimes not. Remember back then there were no, or at least I did not have, all the nice digital analysis gear we have now. (I had Nak and HP audio analyzers plus all the usual test gear like analog 'scopes and meters, including my big HP rms voltmeter, and a bunch of commercial and DIY filters for testing.) I could grab frequency sweeps on a spectrum analyzer and take a screen shot using a Polaroid camera pack, hand-record the THD numbers and graphs, etc. (HP made a chart recorder but it was pricey and the places I worked did not have one, though the local college did so I got to play with it some.) Burst response and recovery I could see on a 'scope with persistence (phosphor, not digital memory like today) and again grabbed the Polaroid to capture what I saw.

I could easily spend a day or two testing an amplifier, and had a blast doing it. Sometimes literally... :)

And at the end of the day, I found that pretty high levels of distortion (1% ~ 10% or more depending upon frequency and the type of distortion) was essentially undetectable when music was playing. I added distortion before the amplifier to emulate high nonlinearity and in blind tests it was rarely detected. Music is often complex and includes so many harmonic- and non-harmonic signal components that distortion added by the amps was in the mud.

Oops, this got long, sorry! This is why I should not take days off.

FWIWFM - Don
 
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rebbiputzmaker

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I'd advocate for an additional burst test using longer and more complex tones to assess "dynamic headroom" but somebody is always going to argue it is too stringent or too lax. Just doing the current burst test would be interesting; it would (should) catch those amplifiers that misbehave when overdriven. An amp that recovers cleanly and quickly from clipping is an important criteria to me (and perhaps nobody else).
Absolutely. How it reacts and recovers when over driven is very important to anyone that actually understands what an amp [for music playback] should and should not do.
 

Armand

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Capacitors comes with various expected life-spans. The ones used in the NC400 is Samwha WH series 47uF 100V 105 degrees. It is rated at 5000 hours with full ripple current at 105 degrees. It looks pretty decent and can handle 417mA ripple current at 100kHz. http://www.samwha.com/electric/product/list_pdf2/WL.pdf
1546450438541.png

1546450704708.png


Perhaps a maximum temperature on the capacitor top during a torture test should be 20 degrees less that rated temperature? 30 degrees?
It is possible to calculate the expected life-span if the ripple current also is known, but this will be difficult to measure.

don; I have a big 7kW dummy load with a bunch of combined 8 and 4 ohms gold finned 100W resistors on a fan cooled heatsink which is great. But I would really like to build a reactive load that you describe also. Maybe you suggest values of a 100Hz/10kHz reactance network we could use as a standard?

And, don't apologize for long post! Great read. :)
 

DonH56

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6speed; There is a Playstation3 game called "Guitar Hero" that has another version of the Death Magnetic album. Here is a youtube clip that demonstrates the difference.

Don:
I don’t have any "rage" against the standard. My intention is only to discuss alternative test methods that are more true to real world conditions we could use to compare amplifiers on this forum.
Perhaps how loud the amp can play My Apocalypse (or equivalent) for 30 minutes without overheating could be a test? The problem with this test is that it takes a lot of time/iterations to find the answer. Also, what is overheating? 100 degrees? 120 degrees? Or shutdown? I don’t’ have the answer.
I agree that clipping conditions and recovery is interesting.

And don't get me wrong, I do like overengineered amplifiers that can take full load for hours. But for many users like 6speed, 25W is really enough and it would be nice to have some kind of test that showed how much power an amp can deliver long term without problems.

Sorry, meant to reply to you earlier, juggling other stuff... Some of your points I addressed in my previous (long) post but I do not claim to have any definitive answers. From a design and manufacturing point of view, I have internal specs as well as external to meet, and naturally (or maybe not) that means we stress things to beyond (sometimes well beyond) the published specs to ensure margin over PVT (process, voltage, temperature) variations seen in customer systems (and still they insist on exceeding those limits, sigh).

The "rage" (OK, too strong a word) comment wasn't directed at you but rather at the way this thread seems to have evolved as railing against the FTC spec.

The problem I have is that I do not have good answers for questions like "how long is long term?" and "how much power over max long-term power is required?" As I mentioned, 17 dB was one measured peak-to-average ratio using various musical sources (I cannot find the study, should be in the AES archives someplace but I am no longer a member). 17 dB is a factor of 50 in power; I doubt many manufacturers will spec their nominal FTC average power at 1/50th their "peak power" (but who knows? ;) ) How long is a kick drum strike, a snare drum hit, how large is an initial plucked string and how does it decay? I bet there are answers to questions like these and those can help determine "musical power" requirements. Alas, this is one of those subjects I knew much better decades ago, and simply haven't the time to pursue now. And of course the answers will depend upon the music, the mic'ing, the recording, and all that jazz...

That's why I leaned toward some fairly simple transient tests meant to provide a better (or at least additional) look at amplifier performance beyond steady-state('ish) output power.
 

DonH56

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Capacitors comes with various expected life-spans. The ones used in the NC400 is Samwha WH series 47uF 100V 105 degrees. It is rated at 5000 hours with full ripple current at 105 degrees. It looks pretty decent and can handle 417mA ripple current at 100kHz. http://www.samwha.com/electric/product/list_pdf2/WL.pdf
View attachment 19774
View attachment 19775

Perhaps a maximum temperature on the capacitor top during a torture test should be 20 degrees less that rated temperature? 30 degrees?
It is possible to calculate the expected life-span if the ripple current also is known, but this will be difficult to measure.

don; I have a big 7kW dummy load with a bunch of combined 8 and 4 ohms gold finned 100W resistors on a fan cooled heatsink which is great. But I would really like to build a reactive load that you describe also. Maybe you suggest values of a 100Hz/10kHz reactance network we could use as a standard?

And, don't apologize for long post! Great read. :)

Thanks for the kind words!

One thing to bear in mind is that high-temp stress decreases lifetimes significantly. Probably one of the reasons the FTC test was time-limited.

Amir has a speaker load, I believe, he simulated and could use in his tests. I don't know if I still have my old load; pretty sure it stayed with the store where I worked (30+ years ago!) though I have used similar loads in simulations through the years. I may have it in one of my more recent (i.e. last ten years) circuit simulations. The main idea was (is) to provide some peaks and valleys with large phase angles. Mine emulated a tuned woofer so had a very high impedance peak with a low dip in impedance nearby, and then a capacitive HF load with high phase angle and low impedance to stress the HF stability of the amp. I remember buying caps and winding coils to make one, once upon a time.
 
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amirm

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How about running an initial power sweep, identifying the upper knee in the distortion curve (225W in this case), then running the amp at this power level graphing temperature rise until the chassis temperature reaches x degrees or the power supply caps reach y degrees?
That' is a lot of work between opening the unit, putting temp probes, logging the temps and then correlating them with audio measurements.
 
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amirm

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I could easily spend a day or two testing an amplifier, and had a blast doing it. Sometimes literally... :)
This is key. If you are a magazine publishing two to three reviews a month, then you can run extensive tests. For me, I have to be able to get in and out of a test including documentation in a couple of hours. Any more than that gets way too tedious and stops me from testing so many other products.

For occasional tests we could do more extensive testing but for routine tests, it has to be quick tests.
 
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amirm

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Maybe we should not test amps routinely and just do maybe 1 a month but more extensively.
It is the same problem as testing them for a long time takes away from testing other things piled up for review. Right now I have the worst backlog ever.

I also don't know if the interest in more tests is academic or needed for members. In this case the company clearly has documented the issues with long term performance. So me replicating them is not of a lot of value.

For other products, whatever we do, cannot require opening the unit as I don't always have permission to do that.
 

RayDunzl

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If you want to run an amp hard, buy one too big.

That's been my solution.
 
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