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Chord DAVE Review (DAC & HP Amp)

Rate this DAC & HP Amp

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 296 60.7%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 121 24.8%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther

    Votes: 46 9.4%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 25 5.1%

  • Total voters
    488
OP
amirm

amirm

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In a typical arrangement, the distributor and dealer would take around 50-60% and sometimes more portion of the retail price and leave the rest to the manufacturer.
You don't know if a distributor is involved. Likely not. Standard high end margin is 40%. If the equipment is discounted, it comes out of this margin, no manufacturer margin. So you are way off in your math.
 

blackmetalboon

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Some judge a book by its cover only. Some judge a potential mate by the frontal endowment.
I am a leg man myself; yet I do make an exception for audio hardware and don't pass any short-sighted [-sided] judgement until I can assess their rear-end:
View attachment 220440
View attachment 220441
I am also intrigued by a mysterious potential mate but not so much when it comes to audio hardware missing connector designations/labels.;)

It doesn’t help when people don’t know left from right (look at the XLR connections!).
 

Jimbob54

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It doesn’t help when people don’t know left from right (look at the XLR connections!).
To be fair, you want the right connection to be on the right as you look at the device from the front. This is.

EDIT- Ah yes, they labelled differently on the 2 images.
 
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Ra1zel

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Hundreds of headfi regulars can't be wrong, can they? :rolleyes:
I love this argument, I always respond to those kind of people with:

Hundreds of prophets made world end predictions since ancient times so they couldn't be wrong, right?
 

chesebert

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You don't know if a distributor is involved. Likely not. Standard high end margin is 40%. If the equipment is discounted, it comes out of this margin, no manufacturer margin. So you are way off in your math.
I have seen distribution agreements that go up to 60% for high-end ($20k+ gear) manufacturer. I don't know where you got the 40% from. You are probably right on the discount coming off the dealer margin, however. A bit off on the math, but not way off...point still stands - running a high-end audio manufacturing company in the US (with US-based manufacturing) is expensive.
 

voodooless

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Please don’t forget that the Dave is not a product on its own. Most of the IP is reused in the other Chord DAC’s. Only the scale is different. Therefore a lot of the engineering time is amortized over all of these products, not just this one.
 

MattHooper

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In case Chord had any concerns with how their product has been represented in Amir's review...

1. If they think Amir's review unit might not be functioning properly, they could send him one they have checked, for him to measure.

2. If they wanted to argue that Amir wasn't measuring the right things, or using the right equipment to capture the actual performance level of the DAC, they could show their own measurements, with details on what and how they measured.

The usual fall back for such manufacturers who wouldn't do either of the above is:

We don't know specifically what to measure to show why our higher priced DAC sounds superior...it just does.

(And slapping on a $14,000 price tag seems to help our customers feel the same way).
 

Ken Tajalli

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I am going to give Chord a small credit:
They have only Four DACs. Each one has different features and is in a different price bracket, so no redundant device.
They do not keep churning new stuff, just to sell the same thing in a new box.
- Mojo2 is a unique device, portable with DSP and at lower price range.
- Hugo2 is also unique, a portable that can also become a desktop, at higher price bracket.
- Hugo TT2 is also unique! a desktop DAC/headphone amp, with enough juice to run efficient speakers directly, so it is almost a one box solution (+ a DAP)
- Dave is top of the range for customers with very deep pockets.
Each unit is a scaled up version of the one below, in DAC technology .

Edit: Forgot Qutest, a basic DAC only, no other features, at reduced price compared to other two desktop DACs.
 
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Kevinfc

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You don't know if a distributor is involved. Likely not. Standard high end margin is 40%. If the equipment is discounted, it comes out of this margin, no manufacturer margin. So you are way off in your math.
So then should I assume that Chord was and is netting $8400 for each of these units before costs? Not a bad business to be in. Just convince enough people that your magic beans are the best.

I’d love to know how many they’ve sold, it cant be more than 1000.
 

AudioSceptic

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Which amplifiers are that crappy that they cannot handle 90kHz. Consider that someone who spends $ 14k on a DAC + $ 4k on he M-scaler either has some excellent and very expensive amps or a tube amp with a rather limited frequency range caused by the OP transformer.

O.K. a lot of class-D amps may have problems with (loud) frequencies that are well above the audible range.
The reasoning was ADC noise though... at say -80dB ?

The ONLY thing that filter does is slightly reduce 20kHz by -1dB which may well be audible to some younger folks.
If it does that, I wonder why the obsession with being dead flat to 22 kHz ( and missing full attenuation by 22.05) with the DAVE's normal Red Book filter?
 

AudioSceptic

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Not only is it still offered, its price is dramatically more than when originally offered:

"is said by its designer, Rob Watts, to be the highest-performance DAC to come from Chord, but at a price: it costs $10,588."

$10,588 5 years ago, $14k now works out to 5.7%/year. Not outrageous IMO. We've had exchange rate changes since then of course, to complicate matters.

From the 2017 Hi-Fi+ review <https://hifiplus.com/articles/chord-electronics-dave-dac-headphone-amp/> (yes, have a laugh) I see it was £8k 5 years ago. Current UK price is £10k so that is 4.6%/year.
 

Jomungur

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Maybe not some of the particularly horrible ones, but assuming they were properly chosen for the task at hand, and aren't broken by fault or design, then yes.

Despite the confident claims made, and despite the fame and fortune that would follow such a properly conducted blind test, no one has provided evidence to the contrary.

If Chord produced an acceptable test showing its products are preferred over the competition, many here would buy them, if only to try to figure out why. I would.

The responses to requests for evidence generally center around them just being too hard, so it shouldn't be expected. Crowdsourced claims are not the same as evidence.
Thanks. The blind test point makes a lot of sense, and I agree on that. That's really the only surefire way to see if there are subjective differences. And you're right, blind tests are sorely lacking in this industry, perhaps because they would be too revealing. (Personally, I believe many "celebrity" designers don't trust blind tests of random people because they think they can hear things others can't. More practical engineers on the other hand working at Apple, for example, don't want to take the chance of designing a product that doesn't sell so they will do blind tests to make sure they tune it properly).

On the other hand, for someone who already believes that there is no possible audible difference between, say, the DACs on Amir's list, it doesn't make sense to even test anything. This is all just a waste of time. Because no measurement that shows a difference in available DACs will change their belief, even if the DAVE measured superior to the Topping D90SE in, say, THD. That's fine, I guess these DAC threads aren't for them. But at the same time they shouldn't cite this review as *supporting* their view, because the review doesn't add any evidence to support their belief, it just gives you comparative numbers with no way to associate them with subjective perceptions. What the review shows is that the DAVE is a surprisingly inferior DAC to many other ones, much cheaper, on sensible measurements of what a DAC should be doing, as well as suggesting poor build quality. I think that by itself is very important to know if you're considering buying the DAVE.

For me, objective measurements and subjective impressions work together. I haven't listened to every DAC, so I don't want to say that I can say for sure that there isn't a superior one like the far more expensive Vivaldi Apex (of which I just received an email inquiry). But I find it telling that I find the Topping D90SE sounds better to me than DAVE on my system, and has superior measurements as well. And so I responded to the dealer telling them they need to send the unit for independent testing to at least show the measurements are equal to the Topping DS90E before I even consider giving it a listen. (I doubt I'll hear back after pointing them to ASR as a possibility).

I realize many readers here will believe I'm deluded when I say I think the Topping D90SE is audibly different than the DAVE. No problem. But I suspect for some readers, especially ones who are considering buying the DAVE, it helps to hear the impressions of someone who has listened to and paid for both as an additional support for their suspicions based on the measurements.
 
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pseudoid

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Too bad ASR does not have a thread for "DoorStop" nominations: Similar to the thread about "SnakeOil" candidates.
index.php

Without hesitation, I would nominate this ensemble as the most expensive yet the sexiest doorstop everrrrrrrrrrrr.:cool:
 
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amirm

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I have seen distribution agreements that go up to 60% for high-end ($20k+ gear) manufacturer. I don't know where you got the 40% from.
Look at my signature. My company buys hundreds of thousands of dollar worth of AV products per year. I know precisely the margins we get and standards in the industry. There is not remotely any kind of distributor agreement with 60% margin. If you mean that kind of dealer margin, that only comes for audio cables and sometimes in-wall speakers and such. Otherwise, the norm is 40% and it can actually drop to 25% for pro products. If you buy a ton of gear from a company, you may climb up to 45%. But that is it.
running a high-end audio manufacturing company in the US (with US-based manufacturing) is expensive.
CHORD is in UK but yes, it is expensive to build such products and distribute them. Here though, the value is quite poor. I am sure the product is priced to market, not based on COGS. If you price it too low, traditional retailers won't carry it as there is not enough money in there for them.
 
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