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Reality Is Overrated When It Comes to Recordings (Article from music Engineer/Producer)

watchnerd

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Yes I'm aware of all that, and in reply would repeat what I said (whatever the artifice used in recording symphonies, I often find it "works" in providing a pretty good illusion of hearing a symphony playing in a hall).


As to the artifice of recording: Anyone who records and works in sound also knows that the artifice involved in recording/production doesn't necessarily equate to artifice in sound. Because of the nature of microphones, and the fact they don't have brains attached interpreting the sound, you often have to mic things in ways you wouldn't place your ears, which is one reason spot mics are combined with ambient mics. Ambient mics placed where are ears are at a distance from a sound source will often sound too distant, vague and less vivid, more dominated by the surrounding acoustics, than the real experience. Our hearing system tends to "hear through" ambient acoustics, so in that sense a singer or violinist, heard at the depth of a hall, would still be percieved as more vivid than ambience mics placed in the same spot. That is one of the reasons you combine spot micing and blend the two. You can better approximate what we hear in that respect.

I'm manipulating sound in the most artificial way all day long, but it's in the service of producing results that sound natural to the ear...since the original recordings do not. Another point is that many recordings, including many symphonic, aren't necessarily trying to capture a symphony "exactly as it sounds in that space" but are still attempts to produce a sensation of a symphony playing in a hall, which I think is often successful.

But of course symphonies are recorded in different ways depending on the goal - from a more "naturalistic goal" to utterly unnatural for effect. I've said before that I am just as happy with "unnatural" symphonic recordings (many of the soundtracks I love are clearly crazy close mic'd and mixed for effect rather than recreation of the typical symponic listener experience). However, plenty of orchestral recordings are quite successful, IMO, in sounding more like a symphony in a real hall, however they were recorded.

So I guess we still see things a bit differently.

I honestly can't tell what you're trying to say.

You acknowledge recordings are manipulated to make them more involving for home listeners, but then call it natural to the ear.

I, personally, can't wrap my head around that.

I just acknowledge that it's fake and I like the fakery.

The point of the original article was to point out how much fakery is in the recording chain and how that doesn't represent reality -- but it's still enjoyable.
 
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Robin L

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I'd just like to point out that reality is overrated.

1604926_923976817654576_96666839267118479_n.jpg
 

coonmanx

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So how does everyone feel about the audiophile obsession with dynamic range? There is a particular website that rates albums on how much dynamic range is on the recording, holding up a particular version of the 1812 Overture as the ideal because the cannons are 20db louder than the music itself. By comparison, Power Trip's "Nightmare Logic" (a thrash metal album) is rated very poorly, yet to my ears it sounds excellent.
For some reason I don't listen to a lot of cannon shots...
 

Robin L

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Cbdb2

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First, who cares what these Dunning-Kruger armchair recording engineers want, there cluless.

If you were to watch a movie made from a play would you want the whole movie to be one shot from a single camera/mic in the 4th row? So why would you want that from your recorded music. Its very much the same difference. No retakes, only one angle, no editing, no coloring, no dsp, etc. These are all tools that influence /enhance the art. Why would you take these tools away from music producers. Some overuse these tools but hey its there art.

And the most obvious point, when recording tech was accelerating in the sixties why would anyone want to add the cost and complexity of multi mic/track recording and processing if it didn't achieve the results they wanted, ie better recordings.
 
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MattHooper

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You acknowledge recordings are manipulated to make them more involving for home listeners, but then call it natural to the ear.

I acknowledged that recordings have all sorts of different goals - some are seeking to sound more natural, others are not.
Some are meant to sound exaggerated, some are supposed to be heard as sounding more natural.

That isn't something you are actually denying is it?

And, as I said, music production can use means that are on their face "artifice" to nonetheless construct the impression of something more or less "natural."

Why is that at all confusing?

I, personally, can't wrap my head around that.
I just acknowledge that it's fake and I like the fakery.

That sounds like black and white thinking, and I don't know why someone thinks like that. There is clearly a continuum between "more natural sounding" recordings and "more artificial sounding recordings." That's not only obvious to any listener I would think, but anyone working in sound would have to be able to acknowledge this continuum in order to be able to work on different types of recordings. I mean, you could approach a piano recording where you want to capture or recreate a sound is "more or less like the Bösendorfer being played in that particular hall"...or you could record and manipulate the sound to make it sound like a tiny toy piano in a closet. One is clearly aiming for, and achieving more, of a natural/realistic sound. The fact perfect fidelity to the sound of the real event isn't possible doesn't mean there isn't some sliding scale towards or away from realism and it strikes me as exceedingly odd to ignore these differences under the banner "it's all fake anyway."

If in my job sound editing if a character on screen was riding a Harley and I put in the sound of a tiny motorbike, the producers and directors would object that it doesn't sound at all "real" like a Harley. I'd be out of a job if I just said "what do these distinctions matter, it's all fake anyway, right?"
 

watchnerd

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That sounds like black and white thinking, and I don't know why someone thinks like that.

Saving neurons for stuff that matters.

I listen to things. If I like them, I listen to them more.

It doesn't matter to me how 'realistic' or 'natural' it supposedly is / isn't.

It's pretty simple.
 
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MattHooper

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Saving neurons for stuff that matters.

Fair enough as an expression of your own personal feelings of course. I can understand taking the personal stance: "it all sounds fake to me anyway, so I won't bother ever expecting or caring about whether something sounds more natural or not."

But as a practical matter, that type of black and white thinking can make it hard to communicate with others on such subjects, though. If that matters.

As I've said: I have to communicate about sound, thinking of it on a broader level including how others experience it, all the time in my job. I don't have the luxury of sticking to personal idiosyncrasy on that level.
 
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CtheArgie

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I am starting to lose an understanding of what this discussion is about. There are types of music and types of artists with different goals and objectives. It is as if all painters should use the same style. Even within artists you can get various "sound constructions".

I find it that small classical music ensembles recorded in smaller rooms can be uncannily realistic at home. I also think that some bigger pieces of classical music can kid your brain into getting the feeling of reality. Compared to film, we don't have the video to increase our brain confusion, so our brains need to work harder to "suspend disbelief". A solo cello can be very natural at home. Some pop music too. There is a song from the Uruguayan Jorge Drexler singing with the Chilean Mon Laferte called "Asilo". It is recorded very simply. The two voices and a semi hollow electric guitar with minimal processing. If you set the volume at home of the voice of a person in front of you, this song can convince you that they are singing to you with you. But Drexler has also songs with processing. I have seen him live twice. Once I even attended his sound check. He spent an inordinate amount of time because he wanted to make sure the sound was what he expected. Not surprisingly, his sound in concerts is absolutely wonderful. And then I have records from Mark Knopfler that sound really nice and simple but his concert at the Dolby Theatre a few yers ago had one of the worst sounds ever. Who thunk?

Classical music live can also be very disconcerting. Some halls sound great in almost every seat, most don't. And when I get a classic recording, which seat do I get? Thus, I try not to compare the sound live with the recording because of that. Still, some records get my brain to think that it is very "natural" (Is it correct to use that word?).

I think that our current sound systems are very good, actually excellent, to reproduce what they are given. And I think some music is recorded the way we like it and some is not, and some are truthfully bad. C'est la vie! But most music is recorded to be played in two channel systems. And complaining is like saying that the Mona Lisa is not good because it is not the David.
 

theREALdotnet

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When the movie analogy was dropped onto this thread I wasn’t too keen on it, but I think there are some parallels between how movie making and sound recording evolved.

Many of the first movies made were filmed theatrical performances, either literal recordings of theatre stages, or movies played in a quintessential theatrical way. They were hampered by the fact that early movies had no speech, which is of central importance in much of theatre. That’s probably one of the reasons movies soon weaned themselves off their theatrical roots and found new ways of expression, even before they became talkies. Today, the typical movie (of any genre) has very little to do with a stage performance at a theatre (which you can still go and see, of course). The pendulum sometimes swings back, too, and you can see technology infused theatre performances that employ lots of movie-inspired special effects.

Music recording started in a similar way, with almost all of the early recordings being literal cuts of concert performances. In the second half of the last century music recording, too, moved beyond the capture of stage performances and started to add its own ways of expression. These days the performers involved could often be called recording artists, frequently one-man bands or small teams of collaborators. Their work is a synthesis of music and technology that has little to do with going to a concert (which you can still do). Again, the opposite trend can be observed, with DJs filling large venues for live concerts. (This is very broad strokes and there are all kinds of mixed forms and cross-over types of recordings, for example a lot of 20th century folk/rock/pop music started out on stage but was always “plugged in”, and hence had a natural shortcut into recording.)

Despite these parallels there is also a major difference: while the filming of theatre performances on stage seems to have gone out of fashion (as far as I can tell, anyway) despite the availability of movie sound, the recording of music concerts has not. Especially when it comes to classical music (in the wider sense), the recording of performances, just as you would attend them in person, is still thriving. I happen to be mostly interested in the these kinds of recordings, but I recognise that the majority of consumers of recorded music are not.

I think that unless we take into account that these broad types of music recordings – traditional concert recordings (even when done in the studio) on one side, and modern recording artist productions on the other – necessarily have different goals and different views of what sounds good or real, and clearly articulate which one we’re talking about, we’ll never get to the bottom of the debate in this thread.
 

Robin L

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This is what my favorite music sounds like.

Especially with perceptual enhancers.
Well, howdy Brahmachari, this one's for you!

 

Sal1950

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In fact there are actually some tracks I truly prefer listening on my iphone's speakers vs my big stereo system!
That's because they don't contain any vinyl noise contamination.
You know,, snap crackle, pop. LOL JK

I'd just like to point out that reality is overrated.
Who's reality?
Like the musician, everyone in the production chain is trying to create a musical event for the end listener to enjoy.
I'd prefer my system was first, able to recreate that musical event as closely as I can possibly make it happen within my financial, room, etc limitations. They might have something extremely interesting to offer.
After that, if I want to add a little enhancement, be it tonal, or upsampling 2ch's to 11, whatever, if it pleases me it's all good. ;)
 

Blumlein 88

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If we could fully reproduce the live event, would you want it? Of course you would. Music that is recorded might still have its own art for home listening, but you'd love to be able to recreate actual live events. Or even perfectly done creations of events that never happened.

Of course you have things that are there own thing in how to experience a story or a feeling related to real situations. Take theater. It was never going to be able to recreate reality, and yet it tried to artistically implement the barest outlines letting your own mind do the rest to tell a story of events you hadn't experienced as real. So it was always about doing reality within confines (a large part of all art).

The cofines of film are very different than stage and some parts didn't translate over, and others were lost. Plus with FX film's abilities have changed over time.

Same with paintings. Impressionists are recreating or creating reality within the confines of the painted picture which is sometimes intentionally not real.

So even when not trying to record in documentary fashion, music is about reality, and creation of such reality. So reality is not over-rated it simply is a key part of the recorded musical experience.
 

Newman

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ADU

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I'm curious about other people's thoughts on the article or subject.

Still digesting. Alot of articles like this seem to be as much about self-promotion as information though. And since I haven't read any of McNair's other articles, it's somewhat unclear to me exactly what his motivation may have been for writing this piece.
 
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Sancus

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I think that unless we take into account that these broad types of music recordings – traditional concert recordings (even when done in the studio) on one side, and modern recording artist productions on the other – necessarily have different goals and different views of what sounds good or real, and clearly articulate which one we’re talking about, we’ll never get to the bottom of the debate in this thread.

I agree these broad types exist, I think where people get lost is the idea there are certain recording techniques associated with each one that are not used for the other or some kind of purity in audio engineering. There really aren't. Recording and mixing techniques are a bunch of tools in a toolbox, you can build a house with many different combinations and the house is no more or less real depending on whether you used a regular hammer or a nail gun.

To me I think that's what the engineer in the original article is getting at:
This reaffirmed my impression that a lot of audiophiles think that most (if not all) recordings should be done with as few microphones as possible and no equalization that could destroy the natural sound. And let’s make sure the performers are playing together live in the studio. And we want to get the FULL dynamic range of the musicians, so no pesky dynamic processing. This event can then be reproduced at home to present a credible approximation of what it sounded like in the studio or performance hall. Total reality.

The reason this type of recording technique is mostly gone is because it's not time efficient, effective, and it doesn't necessarily even sound good. You CAN produce a decent recording with 2-3 mics mixed down to stereo. But it's inevitably going to be inferior to a recording with many mics where you can decide how much room sound you want or don't want, fix mistakes or unwanted noise with editing or with material from one of the other mics, etc etc. I myself am puzzled why people think doing that is some kind of goal. Which is not to say there aren't people doing incredible recordings without a lot of post-processing. There are. But they're no longer using so few mics. 2L does very little if any post-processing, but they don't use 2 mics, they use 5-11+ mics to produce recordings that are far more real than any stereo recording could ever hope for.

Film scores, which often sound better than the vast majority of actual classical recordings, use a huge numbers of mics and a much more complex mixing and mastering process. John Williams in Vienna was recorded for Atmos no doubt using many mics and it sounds fantastic.

The other side is of course the pop/rock/hiphop/non-acoustic music genres in general. Those are in the camp not trying to be realistic at all. But again, the toolbox is still a toolbox. If you have a more acoustic band and you want to set up with mics that capture room sound, you can certainly do that. Or not, if you don't. Or maybe you don't have instruments at all and everything is just computer generated. Also a thing.

It's all music. People are free to prefer what they like but I've found that there are brilliant experiences to be had both on the heavily acoustic/concert-based side and also on the completely, 100% artificial side. If you tunnel vision on one or the other you're just missing out. Sad, but no matter. The industry has moved on whether audiophiles like it or not.
 

tuga

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2L does very little if any post-processing, but they don't use 2 mics, they use 5-11+ mics to produce recordings that are far more real than any stereo recording could ever hope for.

I very much disagree. I find those recordings I have listened to to sound very much unreal. Enveloping or exciting yes but not really realistic in my experience (with a 2-channel).

The most realistic recordings I've listened to (in 2-channel) are Mario/PlayClassics':

 
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