DSP - does it defeat the object of expensive analogue sources?

[JJB70]

If one defines a DAC as a pice of hifi kit sitting on your shelf, then I beg to differ. That is not my own experience and I struggle with the idea that across a range of prices from say £1000 to £50 000 all DACs sound the same. That's an entire industry almost built on quicksand, even after you allow for hype and marketing !

I do, however, accept that all modern DAC chips might well measure the same, but that is not how I interpreted this response

@watchnerd, they can be viewed as a necessary evil, if i can put it like that

I think the law of diminishing returns probably kicks in at around $100 for DACs. As you go up the scale you should expect them to measure better (though you might be disappointed on that one) but in general the differences in sound signature are in no way commensurate with the escalation of prices and provided they're well designed the cheaper DACs from Topping, SMSL etc sound as near as makes no difference to anything you'll find provided you don't purposefully buy a design which has induced euphonic distortion.

That is not to say however that they're all built the same, or they all measure the same, or that their headphone stages are the same (if they have one) etc. The products of companies like RME and Benchmark tend to be beautifully made, measure superbly (even if the benefits of that great technical performance are basically inaudible) and often have superb headphone outputs (although, in all honesty you can buy a superb headphone amp for less than $200 which will be more than sufficient for anybody IMO in terms of sound quality). Although products like RME and Benchmark aren't cheap they are a quality product with a pleasure of ownership, however if talking proper high end hi-fi they're not particularly expensive. Above those price points I can't even see the prices are justified by build and technical (measured) performance and it all just becomes snake oil IMO.

 

[watchnerd]

Hence, as per @watchnerd, they can be viewed as a necessary evil, if i can put it like that

And they're really only a necessary evil because there are still not enough (it's getting better) active speakers on the market that accept direct digital input and there aren't enough choices among front ends / preamps / ADCs with full feature sets.

For my Devialet Expert-based system, I occasionally toy with the idea of yanking the passive crossover out of my Contour 20s and just using the DSP in the Expert to do all the Xover, so an external 'active' speaker. Or getting a pair of the crossover-less Atohm GT 1 speakers.

 

[watchnerd]

FWIW, for domestic (non-studio) use:

1. Fully internally active speaker with DSP crossover and built-in wifi streaming and no physical input makes sense to me. Only 1 cord (AC power).

2. 'External active' / ultra passive speakers with no internal crossovers and all of the compute / power / wifi being external also makes sense to me. Only 1 cord (amplification). I also prefer this from a software / platform upgrade POV.

Active speakers requiring physical input are an old school and/or studio format we don't need any more for home use.

Just like we don't need passive speakers with internal crossovers anymore.

The hybrid of the two is an icky transition stage for home use.

 

[restorer-john]

...Just like we don't need passive speakers with internal crossovers anymore...

You may not 'need' passive speakers with internal crossovers, but the market for them is massive and will continue to be so for many decades.

Consider the vast number of small 6.5" 2 way passive speakers currently being made by just about every manufacturer out there. I've never seen so many competent, small passive speakers being sold, have you?

 

[watchnerd]

You may not 'need' passive speakers with internal crossovers, but the market for them is massive and will continue to be so for many decades.

Consider the vast number of small 6.5" 2 way passive speakers currently being made by just about every manufacturer out there. I've never seen so many competent, small passive speakers being sold, have you?

Really?

Everyone I know under 35 is buying Sonos, Apple Homepod, Alexa, etc.

They don't even own amps, except maybe for headphones.

 

[restorer-john]

Really?

Everyone I know under 35 is buying Sonos, Apple Homepod, Alexa, etc.

They don't even own amps, except maybe for headphones.

I believe you.

Tell me then, why do we have so many passive small speakers on the HiFi market?

We know there is great profit in small speakers, they are shipped in a single box, weigh very little, cost very little to manufacture, offer tremendous sound to customers in a small footprint that belies their volume.

Perhaps huge numbers of people are ditching their larger speakers for smaller more 'lifestyle' ones?

 

[watchnerd]

I believe you.

Tell me then, why do we have so many passive small speakers on the HiFi market?

We know there is great profit in small speakers, they are shipped in a single box, weigh very little, cost very little to manufacture, offer tremendous sound to customers in a small footprint that belies their volume.

Perhaps huge numbers of people are ditching their larger speakers for smaller more 'lifestyle' ones?

Baby boomers downsizing from giant speakers as they sell their homes and move into retirement condos.

I don't know what @Sal1950 uses for speakers now, but it's not the La Scala anymore.

 

[restorer-john]

I don't know what @Sal1950 uses for speakers now, but it's not the La Scala anymore.

Maybe he upsized?

https://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/wamm (and special mention to Wilson for using the word verisimilitude in their product introduction blurb.)

 

[watchnerd]

Maybe he upsized?

https://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/wamm (and special mention to Wilson for using the word verisimilitude in their product introduction blurb.)

Notice the super car in the driveway out the window....they know their (limited) market.

 

[restorer-john]

...Notice the super car in the driveway out the window...

Yeah, my butler had neglected to park it in my basement garage at the time of the photograph. I had to let him go for that transgression.

 

[watchnerd]

Yeah, my butler had neglected to park it in my basement garage at the time of the photograph. I had to let him go for that transgression.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Tell me then, why do we have so many passive small speakers on the HiFi market?

It's hard for active-speaker makers to get distributors or retailers. You sell a virtually complete system and there's no room to flog all the associated gear (amps, DACs and cables cables cables).
Plus there is not really an upgrade path that involves churning these associated components.

I know of one active speaker manufacturer that has released a passive range simply due to the demands of distributors and retailers

 

[Sal1950]

Baby boomers downsizing from giant speakers as they sell their homes and move into retirement condos.

I don't know what @Sal1950 uses for speakers now, but it's not the La Scala anymore.

My rig is well documented here,
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sals-system.614/
In short massively downsized. Using a HSU Research based 5.2.4 speaker system in a HT immersive technology configuration capable of somewhat compromised Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro decoding. The downsizing was a forced move to be able retire thru a BIG reduction in living expenses. Major sacrifices were made but in the big picture worth every bit of it to be able to walk away from the grind of day to day employment.
Up in the frigid north of Chicago a dual system actually existed in a med-large living room. Facing north was the La Scala pure stereo based rig, Spin the listening chair 180 south faced the TV and a 5.2 Paradigm speaker based rig that shared twin 7' tall HSU subwoofers and amps for the bottom.

 

[Sal1950]

Really?

Everyone I know under 35 is buying Sonos, Apple Homepod, Alexa, etc.

They don't even own amps, except maybe for headphones.

I'd love to have a crystal ball to see things in the next 25-30 years since I won't be around that long.
Every year for the last 3 decades the market for home Hi Fi has shrunk. The explosion of multich rigs I expected to come out of the HT market never really materialized. The miniature Sonos market is growing but is really nothing all that new, just a replacement for the ole table model radios, etc..
No matter what the costs, we can now consider all our stand alone rigs part of one big high end market. How small can the "high end" market shrink to before it becomes a black hole?

 

[watchnerd]

My rig is well documented here,
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sals-system.614/
In short massively downsized.

@Sal1950 I love your definition of "massively downsized"....you've still got a bigger system / more gear than most people I've ever known.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'd love to have a crystal ball to see things in the next 25-30 years since I won't be around that long.
Every year for the last 3 decades the market for home Hi Fi has shrunk. The explosion of multich rigs I expected to come out of the HT market never really materialized. The miniature Sonos market is growing but is really nothing all that new, just a replacement for the ole table model radios, etc..
No matter what the costs, we can now consider all our stand alone rigs part of one big high end market. How small can the "high end" market shrink to before it becomes a black hole?

I think your about right on all this.

I (using your Marantz) have a pretty good home theater rig. 140 inch picture with a very nice color accurate projector. Roughly 20' x 34' room with 10 foot ceilings. So not tiny, but not biggest in the neighborhood. Revel and JBL mix on speakers/sub. It can play cleanly and loudly in surround for movies, sporting events, and music. I've even had three karaoke parties here. Friends come over especially if some movie we all want to see is just available. They enjoy it. Without prompting several have commented on how good the sound is. How there is no reason to drive uptown for a theater if they can visit here. Nice stuff. My rig is not peanuts by most standards, but it is maybe only smart entry level by high end standards.

For a time I only had the projector and a pair of LSR305s up front. As I added the other channels and some more capable up front speakers people would comment on the improvement without prompting. So they noticed. But the big picture got people's attention. Not once have they ever asked about the sound or how much it costs or if they could do something similar. I think every one of them has at one time or another asked a bit about the projector. How much trouble was it, how much did it cost (most of those were surprised it wasn't 2 or 3 times more they just had no idea about projectors), could I set it up or did I think one would work in their living rooms or other rooms. While they noticed the sound, and likely get additional enjoyment from movies vs the pair of 305s I once had, I don't think it much mattered. One person did comment when I added a center channel it made dialog better. I believe most of these people would be well satisfied with that projector and a decent sound bar (if any of those are really decent). And I've hidden things away so all anyone sees is the Marantz pre/pro and the projector. While it is more complex than they know, they think it is a two box one remote system.

Also, I do a little bit of recording. Can't say I'm especially good at it. I've decided from a little experimentation at least 5 channel surround is really a much better thing. But for what? Nearly no one will consume that except on sound bars (which are really fake) or stereo. Not very good stereo. So I'm sure the high end market will exist in some niche forever, but growing it ain't. Except maybe at the very high end. Wealth distribution has been skewing for a generation at least. And while sales numbers I'm sure are small, the only real growth is probably in those $10k and above components for the richest of people. And portable gear for everyone else. Smart TV's need a soundbar because the things are so thin there is nowhere for speakers. So that's your market. Portable or very small gear, big big ticket items and soundbars.

 

[andreasmaaan]

And while sales numbers I'm sure are small, the only real growth is probably in those $10k and above components for the richest of people. And portable gear for everyone else. Smart TV's need a soundbar because the things are so thin there is nowhere for speakers. So that's your market. Portable or very small gear, big big ticket items and soundbars.

Spot on I think.

I'm not sure what's happening in places like China and India though. I wonder if the high-end market isn't actually growing in these big countries where the middle classes have expanded rapidly.

 

[watchnerd]

I don't know how much longer the home theatre spend will last, either.

In our house, much of our video watching is done individually, on tablets, phones and computers.

We don't even have cable tv.

We have a Samsung Frame TV for the 1-2 times a week we watch things as a couple. It's not even hooked up to our stereo, doesn't have a soundbar even, but my wife likes the way it hangs on our fireplace and the Samsung super thin fiber optic hookup is brilliant.

We went 9 months with no tv at all in the new house until we finally got one.

And, FWIW, the audio set up in the living room is probably 15-20x the price of the video setup.

 

[Sal1950]

I don't know how much longer the home theatre spend will last, either.

But you do have to realize your very very far out of the mainstream that comes home, eats, and turns on the TV for entertainment till bed.
Which more and more of I see using a soundbar like 88 mentioned.
Most don't even own a Hi Fi.

 

[watchnerd]

But you do have to realize your very very far out of the mainstream that comes home, eats, and turns on the TV for entertainment till bed.
Which more and more of I see using a soundbar like 88 mentioned.
Most don't even own a Hi Fi.

Actually, when I talk to the Millenials I work with, I don't think I'm out of the mainstream at all.

They all seem to be cord cutters. None of them seem to have home theaters.

And they're soon to be the dominant demographic.