Balanced DAC if source is TV?

[Lambda]

Don’t know what your exactly trying to do but If your source is a TV it as Toslink output? if not maybe HDMI and you can maybe uses an HDMI audio extractor (to toslink)
You cant go from toslink to USB! you can only go from USB to Toslink. this is USB in Toslink out. not the other way around.

if you want the Aiyima A07 you can’t uses a balanced DAC

if you want DSP get a DSP with digital input! MiniDSP 2x4 HD for example.

 

[Zek]

Chang, I don't know if you saw this Aiyima amplifier, it has good digital inputs (for TV, PC, etc.), it has bluetooth and sub output.

AIYIMA D03

Features: Upgrade your speakers and subwoofer with a 150W@4ohm x2-channel amplifier, high-fidelity streaming music. Bluetooth 5.0 amplifier with APTX-LL let you stream music and stereo sound in crisp. With a world of input mode options, D03 is always getting satisfy in different occasions. Built...

www.aiyima.com

also thread here

AIYIMA D03 class D amplifier "Subjective review"

I present to you the brand new Aiyima D03 Class D amplifier AIYIMA D03 After several listening experiences, with different amplifiers, by class and by brand, today, after having extensively tested various electronics, even in class D, I focus on the new amplifier from AIYIMA (Chinese...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[chang]

Don’t know what your exactly trying to do but If your source is a TV it as Toslink output? if not maybe HDMI and you can maybe uses an HDMI audio extractor (to toslink)
You cant go from toslink to USB! you can only go from USB to Toslink. this is USB in Toslink out. not the other way around.

if you want the Aiyima A07 you can’t uses a balanced DAC

if you want DSP get a DSP with digital input! MiniDSP 2x4 HD for example.

Appreciate... think I'm getting the hang of this

 

[TimW]

I have used the miniDSP 2x4HD for a TV setup before. It worked great to EQ the speakers, integrate powered subs, and do room correction EQ. It is true that the 2x4HD does not have the same excellent performance as modern DACs and newer miniDSP products. However when I upgraded to the miniDSP SHD I did not hear any audible difference other than a reduction in noise. What you should keep in mind with the 2x4HD is that it has connectors on front and back, no physical controls or display, and a bright power LED that is always on. This makes for an ugly thing sitting under your TV with limited I/O and usability compared to the SHD or Flex.

There is definitely a big learning curve when it comes to using miniDSP products to their fullest and getting an excellent frequency response in your room. You will definitely want to get a miniDSP Umik-1 and REW for measuring this as well. You don't necessarily have to tackle all of it on your first go around though. I have tweaked DSP settings more times then I can count, and often just enter basic slap together setting to get a new system up and running. Don't be afraid of getting a DSP unit and not using all of its capabilities on your first go around.

 

[chang]

Chang, I don't know if you saw this Aiyima amplifier, it has good digital inputs (for TV, PC, etc.), it has bluetooth and sub output.

AIYIMA D03

Features: Upgrade your speakers and subwoofer with a 150W@4ohm x2-channel amplifier, high-fidelity streaming music. Bluetooth 5.0 amplifier with APTX-LL let you stream music and stereo sound in crisp. With a world of input mode options, D03 is always getting satisfy in different occasions. Built...

www.aiyima.com

also thread here

AIYIMA D03 class D amplifier "Subjective review"

I present to you the brand new Aiyima D03 Class D amplifier AIYIMA D03 After several listening experiences, with different amplifiers, by class and by brand, today, after having extensively tested various electronics, even in class D, I focus on the new amplifier from AIYIMA (Chinese...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I have and I've been strongly considering it. It got good reviews from Cheapmanaudio and seems to be a great integrated to start with. Keened laid it out nicely, now I just have to decide where to begin knowing that the Flex is in my future.

Do you by chance know if the bluetooth constantly emits a signal trying to locate devices or only when devices try to connect? I ask b/c I'd prefer to avoid bt or at least have the option to disable it.

 

[TimW]

If you're not strongly tied to the Q Acoustics 3020 and a power amplifier I would suggest taking a look at entry level powered speaker options. In this price range you will typically get better performance from a powered speaker. The Kali LP-6 would be my recommendation.

 

[chang]

Eh, none for significantly cheaper. Most recommended integrated amps are ~$500. If you could still find a Topping MX3 for ~$200 that's be worth it, or it's successor the MX5, or a used WXA-50. I'd stick with something close to your original plan: D10/E30/E50 or the SMSL SH-9/any number of modern DAC, then pair it with an A07/PA3/PA5/etc and then sell it to swap out later.

The vast majority of integrated amps are predicated on people paying for ease of use and aesthetics so they tend to costs more for the same or lesser performance. I would even go so far as to say see if you can find cheap/free amplifiers in the used sections and throw all of your money at the Flex because we're going to continue to see better amps for less money for at least another few years while we've more or less finished with DACs other than features.

Edit: added MX5

Thanks for helping me narrow down my options as well as the insight into future development with amps and dacs.

Is there an average life span on a dac? I'm a little hesitant with buying used.

I'll let this marinate for a few days and hopefully move forward soon.

 

[chang]

I have used the miniDSP 2x4HD for a TV setup before. It worked great to EQ the speakers, integrate powered subs, and do room correction EQ. It is true that the 2x4HD does not have the same excellent performance as modern DACs and newer miniDSP products. However when I upgraded to the miniDSP SHD I did not hear any audible difference other than a reduction in noise. What you should keep in mind with the 2x4HD is that it has connectors on front and back, no physical controls or display, and a bright power LED that is always on. This makes for an ugly thing sitting under your TV with limited I/O and usability compared to the SHD or Flex.

There is definitely a big learning curve when it comes to using miniDSP products to their fullest and getting an excellent frequency response in your room. You will definitely want to get a miniDSP Umik-1 and REW for measuring this as well. You don't necessarily have to tackle all of it on your first go around though. I have tweaked DSP settings more times then I can count, and often just enter basic slap together setting to get a new system up and running. Don't be afraid of getting a DSP unit and not using all of its capabilities on your first go around.

Haha, maybe the extra cost of the Flex is worth having a wart free system.

Aren't the Umik and REW necessary to use the dsp?

So there's a simplified setup in the software to help ease into the program?

If you're not strongly tied to the Q Acoustics 3020 and a power amplifier I would suggest taking a look at entry level powered speaker options. In this price range you will typically get better performance from a powered speaker. The Kali LP-6 would be my recommendation.

Really?? I didn't think that was the case. I was originally looking at the Kanto YU's, but read separates were preferred.

 

[TimW]

Aren't the Umik and REW necessary to use the dsp?

So there's a simplified setup in the software to help ease into the program?

The Umik is necessary for REW and Dirac if you pay for that license. REW and Dirac can be used for room correction which can create a marked improvement in system performance. REW can also be used to determine appropriate subwoofer volume, crossover slopes, and delay. If you get these settings right before performing room correction you usually end up with an even better result. However while the Umik is very useful, you technically do not need it to get your system setup and operating with DSP. There are corrective PEQ settings for most of the speakers measured here which you can enter into the miniDSP, and you can guesstimate subwoofer volume and crossovers to get up and running with decent sound.

My point being, don't be overwhelmed by the possibilities of DSP, there's nothing wrong with having it and not using it to it's fullest. Keep in mind that you need a PC connected to the miniDSP to make setting changes.

Really?? I didn't think that was the case. I was originally looking at the Kanto YU's, but read separates were preferred.

Separates are preferred by some, there are pros and cons. Theoretically having a fully active system allows for a more efficient speaker system with better damping factor, lower IM distortion, and a more sophisticated crossover. Passives allow for selection of higher end electronics which may be more serviceable and will probably have higher resale value. If you have a look at our speaker index and sort based on preference score though, at this price range actives don't necessarily dominate. Keep in mind that the preference score is not exact, many people say anything within +/-1.0 could sound significantly better or worse than something that scores in that range. Others here think there is no validity to the preference score at all. Never the less here is the top of the list for speakers less than $200 each.

The top four are DIY, and I am a big fan of the Philharmonic AAM wich is a modified version of the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR. The JBL Stage A130 is a very decent passive speaker for how inexpensive it is, although Erin's measurements did not look so rosy. The JBL Studio 530 scores 7.3 but is not on this list because the price was not entered correctly. The Kali LP-6 measured here was version 1, Erin measured version 2 and it would score 7.7 here which puts it near the top of the list. The Kali is often on sale for less than $300 per pair with amplification which is a bargain considering the performance. It has better bass extension and output capability than something like the Pioneer or the Zaph. The Kanto YU was measured here and just doesn't have the same level of performance. It is not really a fully active speaker, just a passive speaker with electronics built in which is kind of the worst of both worlds.

 

[chang]

The Umik is necessary for REW and Dirac if you pay for that license. REW and Dirac can be used for room correction which can create a marked improvement in system performance. REW can also be used to determine appropriate subwoofer volume, crossover slopes, and delay. If you get these settings right before performing room correction you usually end up with an even better result. However while the Umik is very useful, you technically do not need it to get your system setup and operating with DSP. There are corrective PEQ settings for most of the speakers measured here which you can enter into the miniDSP, and you can guesstimate subwoofer volume and crossovers to get up and running with decent sound.

My point being, don't be overwhelmed by the possibilities of DSP, there's nothing wrong with having it and not using it to it's fullest. Keep in mind that you need a PC connected to the miniDSP to make setting changes.



Separates are preferred by some, there are pros and cons. Theoretically having a fully active system allows for a more efficient speaker system with better damping factor, lower IM distortion, and a more sophisticated crossover. Passives allow for selection of higher end electronics which may be more serviceable and will probably have higher resale value. If you have a look at our speaker index and sort based on preference score though, at this price range actives don't necessarily dominate. Keep in mind that the preference score is not exact, many people say anything within +/-1.0 could sound significantly better or worse than something that scores in that range. Others here think there is no validity to the preference score at all. Never the less here is the top of the list for speakers less than $200 each.
View attachment 199656
The top four are DIY, and I am a big fan of the Philharmonic AAM wich is a modified version of the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR. The JBL Stage A130 is a very decent passive speaker for how inexpensive it is, although Erin's measurements did not look so rosy. The JBL Studio 530 scores 7.3 but is not on this list because the price was not entered correctly. The Kali LP-6 measured here was version 1, Erin measured version 2 and it would score 7.7 here which puts it near the top of the list. The Kali is often on sale for less than $300 per pair with amplification which is a bargain considering the performance. It has better bass extension and output capability than something like the Pioneer or the Zaph. The Kanto YU was measured here and just doesn't have the same level of performance. It is not really a fully active speaker, just a passive speaker with electronics built in which is kind of the worst of both worlds.

Appreciate all the great info. I see myself shooting for the middle ground with the dsp potential. As much as I would love a perfectly balanced sound, I also don't want to be a slave to it. I'd rather be a "set it and forget it" type of listener, as opposed to performing a thousand iterations. I'm liking that I can set things up without a mic, and still get a great sound. Question is now... do I need the Flex or would the 2x4 HD be sufficient. Given Keened's explanation, it seems the HD isn't the best fit for a digital 2.1 system.

Do you find correlation between numbers such as pref score and personal preference for sound?

Unfortunately I'm limited on speaker selection since they have to pass the aesthetic and size test with the wife.

I'm confused on how they run fully active speakers in a book shelf enclosure without each speaker getting a line? Also, are studio monitors a good choice for home systems?

 

[TimW]

Unfortunately I'm limited on speaker selection since they have to pass the aesthetic and size test with the wife.

I'm confused on how they run fully active speakers in a book shelf enclosure without each speaker getting a line? Also, are studio monitors a good choice for home systems?

Fully active speakers like studio monitors do each get their own line. Each speaker gets a power connection and a signal connection, then there is an active crossover followed by amplifier channels for each driver. This can create issues for home applications because more power outlets are needed and if you don't want the speakers to be powered on all the time with their power LEDs glowing you also need a way to turn them on and off together. Or switch each one on and off individually. Also you need a preamplifier which is less common than receivers or integrated amps. That's not a problem with the miniDSP units though and there are multiple solutions for powering on both speakers. I have run studio monitors in home listening setups for myself and others and many people on this forum do as well for the performance advantages.

Weather the wife likes the look of studio monitors or HiFi speakers more could be the deciding factor.

Do you find correlation between numbers such as pref score and personal preference for sound?

It's hard to say because I haven't listened to very many of the speakers we have scores for, and many of the speakers I have heard have not been measured.

 

[Zek]

I'm confused on how they run fully active speakers in a book shelf enclosure without each speaker getting a line?

Wherever you see it, every active speaker must be powered.

 

[chang]

Fully active speakers like studio monitors do each get their own line. Each speaker gets a power connection and a signal connection, then there is an active crossover followed by amplifier channels for each driver. This can create issues for home applications because more power outlets are needed and if you don't want the speakers to be powered on all the time with their power LEDs glowing you also need a way to turn them on and off together. Or switch each one on and off individually. Also you need a preamplifier which is less common than receivers or integrated amps. That's not a problem with the miniDSP units though and there are multiple solutions for powering on both speakers. I have run studio monitors in home listening setups for myself and others and many people on this forum do as well for the performance advantages.

Weather the wife likes the look of studio monitors or HiFi speakers more could be the deciding factor.


It's hard to say because I haven't listened to very many of the speakers we have scores for, and many of the speakers I have heard have not been measured.

Ok.... so.... a minidsp with passive speakers isn't fully active? The only way to achieve that is through the speakers them self? If that's the case, the dsp can only do so much

 

[Zek]

so.... a minidsp with passive speakers isn't fully active?

You cannot connect minidsp and passive speakers directly, need an amplifier between them

 

[chang]

You cannot connect minidsp and passive speakers directly, need an amplifier between them

Right, should've been more clear. How can the minidsp individually adjust the tweeter and midrange/midbass in a book shelf setup such as the Emotiva Airmotiv B1+ with only 1 set of speaker inputs?

 

[TimW]

Ok.... so.... a minidsp with passive speakers isn't fully active? The only way to achieve that is through the speakers them self? If that's the case, the dsp can only do so much

Correct. Fully active designs have the advantage of better damping factor between amp and driver, lower IM distortion, time alignment between drivers, higher efficiency, and the potential for a more optimized crossover design. With that being said, every speaker is flawed in some way. Low price active speakers tend to have noisy, high distortion amplification with limited power output built into them.

With a passive speaker you can use as powerful of an amplifier as you'd like with excellent noise and distortion performance if you're willing to pay for it. So a passive design may be able to play louder with lower distortion and less hiss when music isn't playing. Also, the most important performance aspect of a speaker is the frequency response. The reason active speakers have such a good frequency response is because they use multiple EQ filters in the crossover stage. With a passive speaker and DSP you can get just as good of a frequency response as an active design with the correct filters in place. This is why Amir's klippel data is so invaluable, it can be used to generate extremely accurate filters as shown here. As you can see, the entire frequency range can be altered with precision using the correct PEQ settings. You can find those filters for just about every speaker measured here and program them into a miniDSP. That would give you a very linear frequency response which gets you most of the way to great performance, assuming you picked a speaker with good directivity.

The reason I recommended looking at the Kali LP-6 is because it makes for an easier initial setup. You just get great performance out of the box for cheap. No worrying about weather your amplifier is good enough, or your cables are long enough, and the frequency response is decent enough that you don't need to enter filters into the DSP to correct it. Also Kali put effort into the V2 model to make it much quieter. I find the hiss from similarly priced JBL monitors to be egregious.

 

[Keened]

Thanks for helping me narrow down my options as well as the insight into future development with amps and dacs.

Is there an average life span on a dac? I'm a little hesitant with buying used.

I'll let this marinate for a few days and hopefully move forward soon.

Theoretically it's indefinite. Practically it's when the caps dry out which shouldn't be for at least a decade with decent parts. A/B amps have the same issue along with something about torridal transformer delamination but I'm not sure what the circumstances that even cause that are, so I'll leave that to other people.

Since these amps are going supposed to last you a year or two anyways I think it's a worthwhile risk but it's easy to say that if I'm not getting personally burned.

But as TimW pointed out Active Speakers are very much the way forward for most people unless you need a lot of power, want a full multi-channel system, or just don't trust them (some people have issues with the idea that if the electronics in the speaker dies the whole speaker is dead vs passives where you just have to replace the amp/source/whatever). For small size limitations you can't do better than an active speaker practically speaking. If the limitation is cost, <$500 you might be able to better them with passives if you're willing to put in the time to really be tweaky about it (match the speaker to the room, apply in-situ room correction and DSP, etc) but actives still win for most people.

The tricky part is upgrading them because you have to do it all at once with active speakers. So you can take a $500 passive system and upgrade it with another $500 worth of parts and end up with something you'd need to spend $1500 on for an active equivalent. But once you get up to $2000 the pendulum swings back towards active speakers (again unless you have a large space to deal with/want multi-channel/don't mind physically larger speakers).

 

[chang]

Correct. Fully active designs have the advantage of better damping factor between amp and driver, lower IM distortion, time alignment between drivers, higher efficiency, and the potential for a more optimized crossover design. With that being said, every speaker is flawed in some way. Low price active speakers tend to have noisy, high distortion amplification with limited power output built into them.

With a passive speaker you can use as powerful of an amplifier as you'd like with excellent noise and distortion performance if you're willing to pay for it. So a passive design may be able to play louder with lower distortion and less hiss when music isn't playing. Also, the most important performance aspect of a speaker is the frequency response. The reason active speakers have such a good frequency response is because they use multiple EQ filters in the crossover stage. With a passive speaker and DSP you can get just as good of a frequency response as an active design with the correct filters in place. This is why Amir's klippel data is so invaluable, it can be used to generate extremely accurate filters as shown here. As you can see, the entire frequency range can be altered with precision using the correct PEQ settings. You can find those filters for just about every speaker measured here and program them into a miniDSP. That would give you a very linear frequency response which gets you most of the way to great performance, assuming you picked a speaker with good directivity.

The reason I recommended looking at the Kali LP-6 is because it makes for an easier initial setup. You just get great performance out of the box for cheap. No worrying about weather your amplifier is good enough, or your cables are long enough, and the frequency response is decent enough that you don't need to enter filters into the DSP to correct it. Also Kali put effort into the V2 model to make it much quieter. I find the hiss from similarly priced JBL monitors to be egregious.

Damn... you've definitely given me a lot of think about. The more I read about the LP-6's, the more appealing they're becoming.... and just about every Kali review has been stellar. So the hiss being referred to is just infiltrating noise while the speaker is idle?

I'm unsure if these are suited for my application as a soundbar replacement, since all of the reviews mention nearfield listening positions? (It'll be in a 13x22 room and I'll be sitting anywhere from 11-12 ft away). Erin mentioned not to expect good performance if sitting 12 ft away, listening at 90dB (granted that's crazy loud, doubt I'll ever crank it that high). Just making sure this is suited for my needs.

So how would I setup? TV --> dac --> Kali's?

 

[TimW]

Damn... you've definitely given me a lot of think about. The more I read about the LP-6's, the more appealing they're becoming.... and just about every Kali review has been stellar. So the hiss being referred to is just infiltrating noise while the speaker is idle?

I'm unsure if these are suited for my application as a soundbar replacement, since all of the reviews mention nearfield listening positions? (It'll be in a 13x22 room and I'll be sitting anywhere from 11-12 ft away). Erin mentioned not to expect good performance if sitting 12 ft away, listening at 90dB (granted that's crazy loud, doubt I'll ever crank it that high). Just making sure this is suited for my needs.

So how would I setup? TV --> dac --> Kali's?

Yes the hiss is just a hissing sound the speaker makes which can only be heard when there is a very quiet part of a song or silence. If you leave the speakers on all the time it can be especially noisy.

You can use a current sensing power strip like this to make the speakers come on and off with the TV.

The LP-6's are studio monitors and were therefor designed mainly for nearfield listening. They have switches on the back to modify the sound for desk setups like this. However they also have settings for free field placement and there is nothing about their frequency response or dispersion characteristics that would make them bad in a living room. In fact they are quite good for an in home speaker period. The only limiting factor, as you have seen, is their output capability due to their amplifier power and built in limiting for protection. If you are not planning to listen at very loud levels you should be fine. If you really like to crank the volume, you may want to look elsewhere. Maybe buy them from somewhere that accepts returns in case you decide they don't work for you.

Yes: TV>toslink optical>DAC>XLR or RCA>Studio Monitors.

XLR is preferred over RCA, especially for studio monitors where ground loops are possible. This is more common when the DAC is connected to a grounded PC via USB.

If your DAC is the miniDSP Flex I you can also add a subwoofer or two later.

If you decide not to get a miniDSP DAC, just make sure the one you get has optical input and remote volume control. Your TV's optical output is fixed and the DAC will have to control volume.

 

[chang]

Yes the hiss is just a hissing sound the speaker makes which can only be heard when there is a very quiet part of a song or silence. If you leave the speakers on all the time it can be especially noisy.

You can use a current sensing power strip like this to make the speakers come on and off with the TV.

The LP-6's are studio monitors and were therefor designed mainly for nearfield listening. They have switches on the back to modify the sound for desk setups like this. However they also have settings for free field placement and there is nothing about their frequency response or dispersion characteristics that would make them bad in a living room. In fact they are quite good for an in home speaker period. The only limiting factor, as you have seen, is their output capability due to their amplifier power and built in limiting for protection. If you are not planning to listen at very loud levels you should be fine. If you really like to crank the volume, you may want to look elsewhere. Maybe buy them from somewhere that accepts returns in case you decide they don't work for you.

Yes: TV>toslink optical>DAC>XLR or RCA>Studio Monitors.

XLR is preferred over RCA, especially for studio monitors where ground loops are possible. This is more common when the DAC is connected to a grounded PC via USB.

If your DAC is the miniDSP Flex I you can also add a subwoofer or two later.

If you decide not to get a miniDSP DAC, just make sure the one you get has optical input and remote volume control. Your TV's optical output is fixed and the DAC will have to control volume.

You've been incredibly helpful... much appreciated. You've also stirred the nest... I now have a list of powered speakers in front of me haha. I'm really leaning towards going this route now

Mind if I rattle off a few questions?

Pretty sure the size of the enclosure (and aesthetic) will come into play here with the missus. Would the Adam's T5V or T7V be a good alternative? I'm also open to comparable speakers to the LP-6 or slightly better.

What speakers come into play if I should choose to go louder?

Would you still recommend the dsp if I go the active route?

Would a dac with tone controls be of any benefit here?